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- Jan 19, 2016
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Muhle Rocca win’s against EJ 3one6
- Thread starter SpeedyPC
- Start date
I plan to write a 3ONE6 vs Rocca R94 shave report on Wednesday, also highlighting that most of the geometry is exactly identical, a difference is the safety bar design, size/angle, quite miniscule but it does make a difference.
Can't help, the 3ONE6 always got a bit underappreciated, so this was my inspiration to do such a shave. Quite a coincidence that Geofatboy does such a shave around the same time.
I will check which one shaves better. Then I would like to be cheeky and argue that we have preferred sides/trouble spots, I have often some stubble standing on the lower left cheek for instance.
This said, for me Apollo and Timeless Slim trump both, and quite some other razors as well. I can't help, the 3ONE6 got bashed for not being the DE89 in steel many wanted, and those who just wanted to buy a DE razor had to figure out what "3ONE6" actually means and why they should pay more for a steel razor. Too much money and no appeal for casual shavers, and not quite the burner for enthusiasts. The Rocca is in a similar spot and suffered from market introduction woes (the different head versions, availability, etc..).
Interestingly many people reported that the 3ONE6 gave them a closer shave. Let's see how it will turn out for me on Wednesday...
Can't help, the 3ONE6 always got a bit underappreciated, so this was my inspiration to do such a shave. Quite a coincidence that Geofatboy does such a shave around the same time.
I will check which one shaves better. Then I would like to be cheeky and argue that we have preferred sides/trouble spots, I have often some stubble standing on the lower left cheek for instance.
This said, for me Apollo and Timeless Slim trump both, and quite some other razors as well. I can't help, the 3ONE6 got bashed for not being the DE89 in steel many wanted, and those who just wanted to buy a DE razor had to figure out what "3ONE6" actually means and why they should pay more for a steel razor. Too much money and no appeal for casual shavers, and not quite the burner for enthusiasts. The Rocca is in a similar spot and suffered from market introduction woes (the different head versions, availability, etc..).
Interestingly many people reported that the 3ONE6 gave them a closer shave. Let's see how it will turn out for me on Wednesday...
I have still not shaved and am still writing on this posting, but I will post the images used here already.
Note that I explicity give credit for the 4th image, a gif overlaying both heads, to user "Rohleder", I found the gif there: https://www.theshavingroom.co.uk/community/threads/3one6-user-experience.50168/post-755942
Some quick notes: Notice you see the MIM injection spots on the plate of the 3ONE6. The Rocca head "V4" is full CNC. The geometry is very similar, a shared design and development as for the DE89/R89 is very likely. The safety bar is the major difference, besides grip size and weight (85g vs 96g). It flares out a bit more on the 3ONE6 and herds the shavers a bit more towards the cap. The weight of the 3ONE6 is more in the head, the R94 feels actually lighter in the hand, despite higher weight.
I haven't done the shave yet. If there is a reason for people getting better or worse results with one or the other, it's most probably due to the small differences in the angle on the safety bar.
Edit: Thread OP SpeedyPC was by the way to post this particular GIF here quite a while ago! I figured this out while figuring out who actually made that GIF initially.
Note that I explicity give credit for the 4th image, a gif overlaying both heads, to user "Rohleder", I found the gif there: https://www.theshavingroom.co.uk/community/threads/3one6-user-experience.50168/post-755942
Some quick notes: Notice you see the MIM injection spots on the plate of the 3ONE6. The Rocca head "V4" is full CNC. The geometry is very similar, a shared design and development as for the DE89/R89 is very likely. The safety bar is the major difference, besides grip size and weight (85g vs 96g). It flares out a bit more on the 3ONE6 and herds the shavers a bit more towards the cap. The weight of the 3ONE6 is more in the head, the R94 feels actually lighter in the hand, despite higher weight.
I haven't done the shave yet. If there is a reason for people getting better or worse results with one or the other, it's most probably due to the small differences in the angle on the safety bar.
Edit: Thread OP SpeedyPC was by the way to post this particular GIF here quite a while ago! I figured this out while figuring out who actually made that GIF initially.
I already posted the photos above, the text here was copied from Badger & Blade where I posted this as well. I hope this is not against forum rules.
TL;DR: Ride the bar when you want the 3ONE6 to be very much like the Rocca.
This is a comparison between the two mentioned razors and similarities in portfolio of the two companies, their differences, and hints of ongoing cooperation between EJ and Mühle follow below.
What caused me to do this was that I always found the Edwin Jagger 3ONE6 to be somewhat underappreciated. It is despite looking quite different in terms of shaving geometry almost identical to the Rocca, except for a more classic design. I will discuss the shared geometry and the major difference I found, the safety bar, in relation to the otherwise identical geometry.
Both razors had a rocky release and acceptance history, but eventually shaped up nicely in the end. While the Rocca could, at least this is my impression, find some more fans and success, the 3ONE6 seems to be relatively rare, particularly in the circles of wet shaving enthusiasts.
But isn't this a fate shared with the Rocca? Both razors sit IMO uncomfortably between the chairs of the enthusiast community and the average wet shaver, who just wants to get away from cartridges. For them they are expensive for no immediately recognizable reason, particularly Mühle doesn't talk about that the Rocca is made of steel much, EJ more so.
The Rocca and Mühle got a reputation hit for having supply issues initially, plus the first batches having undocumented experimentation with the head design, how to save costs and how to reduce quality problems in mass production was still not quite ironed out upon release.
Basically, the early deviations of the head had design and quality issues that were not communicated to the wet shaving community and customers in general. The average customer only cares for his razor, if it is working or not, and doesn't notice if there are minor changes in design. But treating the more enthusiast and better connected online communities similarly just doesn't end in happiness and customer satisfaction. The rather diffuse target group and handling of the communication was always the main detractor of both razors, IMO.
The Rocca head went through FOUR unofficial versions, documented in detail on Badger & Blade and elsewhere, from MIM to MIM+CNC to full CNC for the head in the end. Which was according to Mühle in the end cheaper than saving money in production and having to do extra CNC finishing.
Mühle themselves never referred to the early versions by a name or version number, and it was never communicated that there were differences between the early heads. Even Mühle Support contradicted themselves at times. By NOW there are only "V4 heads" being made, but not before Mühle Support had a few years for direct buyers from all over the world requesting specifically V4 heads, while repeatedly stating that there is only one head, later switching to explaining the story sometimes in a bit more detail. Guess people just didn't let that slide.
The Rocca handle is fully CNCed, for the steel version R94. It is the heaviest of the different handles of the Rocca (96g), the others have inlays, in one case birch bark (interesting, but I prefer non-wood, so I don't own and couldn't test how it holds up. According to user reports, it does so very well), the others have for instance the same pattern as on the steel handle put on them as black aluminum inlay on the now apparently not CNCed but cast interior handle, or birch bark wrapped around. These handles are lighter and more akin to the handles used for the aluminum inlay handles used for the 3ONE6. The 3ONE6 knurled handle is grippy, much more so than Mühle handles both in chrome and steel for the R41 for instance. It is a bit on the thin (~12mm) and short side, particularly compared to the R94 handle.
No version changes or availability problems are known for the head of the 3ONE6. The 3ONE6 funnily does it the other way around with MIM and CNC, at least according to EJ and some of their partners: "The head is comprised of stainless steel using the latest MIM (Metal Injection Molding) technology. The collar, knurled grip, and end cap are all CNC-machined for exceptional precision and consistency." Also see the photo for the small injection marks on the baseplate of the 3ONE6. Besides that, it is a very high-quality cast, visibly better than the quality offered by Rockwell for their plates. I would not necessarily rate the 3ONE6 head lower than the Rocca due to it being made in a MIM process. While CNC has better machining tolerances, proper QC and finishing of the piece can achieve a flawless result, too.
While both are very comparable in their geometry, but not in their exterior design. The Rocca is a bit more futuristic, the 3ONE6 more traditional in looks. For instance, lather channels with large slits were Mühle uses wide lather channels that are only open at the ends.
There was already a collaboration between Edwin Jagger and Mühle for the DE89/R89 head. Even beyond that, knots for EJ got sourced from Mühle, initially even the heads of EJ razors came from Merkur, later from Mühle, now they are supposedly produced locally, if a many years old support response "the manufacturing process of some of the components for the DE8 range of razors is sub-contracted to Edwin Jagger/Mühle approved manufacturers not in UK or Germany" is still true, I do not know. Shaving cream production also saw cooperation.
An at least for me as bullet stand fan annoying design element or neglected design both companies share: No bullet stands for razors! Mühle has a few single razor stands, but mostly its combined brush & razor stands, usually with the head upside down.
The Rocca is locally produced in Stützengrün, a place in Saxony with not just one ü-Umlaut but even two, the 3ONE6 in Sheffield. Which is in Yorkshire first, England second. At least this is what a local told me about it in a discord chat. Whatever that means.
The materials seem slightly different: 316L for the 3ONE6, 303 steel for the Rocca. Most likely due to local availability, the difference for wet shaving is not really given. Except you are Aquaman, in this case I would favor 316L, which is also in general a somewhat better steel.
Traditionally Mühle is leaning into adding wood or resin to handles, EJ rather favors fancy shapes and chrome and color, fancy shapes like the Chatsworth handle e.g.. For Rocca and 3ONE6 the trend continues: Both feature a full stainless steel handle, CNC machined, but also handles with aluminum inlays, with EJ offering the more colorful selection, while the Rocca has birch bark and DLC or fancy pattern aluminum inlay handle versions.
By the way… there must be a wet shaving hivemind. Just a few days before I posted this, Geofatboy, some might know him from his wet shaving videos that brought many to wet shaving, did a comparison shave. No link here, as I am quite sure it counts as commercialized Youtube channel and wouldn't fly with forum rules. I hope just mentioning it doesn't cause problems.
In this comparison, the Rocca won by a few hairs and a sound check by rubbing the hand over the cheeks.
But for my comparison shave, I forced a neutral and slightly annoyed person (wife) to touch my cheeks, initially I insisted on a blindfold, but got overruled.
The result was… see below…
But before we go there, look at this nice GIF made by user Rohleder of the UK Shaving Room Forum years ago. It shows a Rocca and 3ONE6 head overlaid.
He wrote quite succinctly:
"Same geometry? Check.
Same blade gap? Check.
Same blade exposure? Check.
Same (lack of) blade clamping? Check."
Both razors still shave differently. And it is because of the different shape and angle of the safety bar in my opinion. Both designs don't bother with scallops on the safety bar, a pity, as I like them.
The 3ONE6 is guiding a bit more towards the cap, the Rocca leans more into a slightly steeper shave. The Rocca head has more audible feedback, I think it is rather due to resonance owned to the larger handle.
While the 3ONE6 is head heavy, the Rocca R94 is quite balanced over the length and feels lighter, while actually being heavier with 96g vs 85g for the 3ONE6.
My first WTG pass favored the Rocca slightly. ATG the Rocca also cleaned up slightly better. But there is a trick for the 3ONE6 to shave exactly like the Rocca: Lean more into the bar, almost to the point of pressing it into your cheek. The shave will feel differently, but you will get a result equal to the Rocca. I used a Feather for both razors. EJ supplies the 3ONE6 with a 5-pack of Feathers, Mühle added a mini goat hair brush to the order directly from their website and added Mühle blades, which are rebranded Personna.
The result of the shaving test:
The somewhat unwilling test subject rubbed my cheeks and declared the shave to be equal. As tester I give the victory regarding pure shaving performance out of the box to the Rocca, though. It works out better intuitively than the 3ONE6. I also claim both razors shave better than the classic DE89/R89. Did I forget something? YMMV, of course.
In terms of design the more classic stainless steel look of the 3ONE6 and a simple plate make it easier to find a fitting alternative handle, while the Rocca handle screws into the plate rather deeply and is of a satin matte finish that is harder to match. I am also just not a fan of the lather channels without holes, even if they work out. Sometimes they really shoot the gunk out, though.
Both razors are rather brothers than competitors. They share design DNA. Their problem is rather the competition. Stainless steel was at their time a quite new and exciting material for razors, but the design of neither razor takes advantage of the material nor does it follow the trend to more clamping of the razor blade.
Highly clamped designs by Wolfman, Wolfman inspired designs by RazoRock, Blutt, Stando, Tatara, so many razor manufacturers these days have shown that tightly clamped down blades can shave even better and with less risk of injury as well.
Audible feedback gets lost in most cases, unfortunately. Both razors also don't take full advantage of the precision that MIM and CNC can offer, Henson shows how tight tolerances and exact geometry can guide the shaver almost automatically to a great result.
While the price of both 3ONE6 and Rocca fell over time, the Winning and Merica razors in the USA and the Greencult razor from Austria, Razorock and their clones from DSCosmetics and Yaqi show that in some cases arguably even better razors can be made for less money.
The problem there is that enthusiasts on wet shaving forums know these companies. But who else does?
It takes a while to get into wet shaving. Maybe Rocca and 3ONE6, both from establish manufacturers selling in many common shops like Amazon, help people getting suckered into the hobby?
For Mühle, the Rocca closes the aggressiveness gap between R89 and R41. The Rocca sits in the middle. For Edwin Jagger who never adopted the R41, the 3ONE6 was more often perceived as "that's not the stainless steel DE89 we wanted." Mühle finally gave in and made the R41 GS in stainless steel, maybe Edwin Jagger does the same for the DE89 one day. But I must say, both Rocca and 3ONE6 shave better than the DE/R89.
Verdict: While both are good razors, their major advantage is better availability everywhere all around the year, not just in batches quickly selling out. But for people coming into wet shaving, they still have a hard time to justify their higher price, without showing all advantages that can possibly come with the material. For people who are already infected with the razor collection bug, they don't offer anything particularly exciting either.
As entry level stainless steel razors they have strong competition by now. It is very interesting to see which razors get picked by wet shavers "upgrading" to more expensive steel razors after a while. The Rocca and 3ONE6 was one of my early choices and I was totally floored when I saw this GIF. I also felt quite a difference between them. It shows how little things can make quite a difference in wet shaving.
TL;DR: Ride the bar when you want the 3ONE6 to be very much like the Rocca.
This is a comparison between the two mentioned razors and similarities in portfolio of the two companies, their differences, and hints of ongoing cooperation between EJ and Mühle follow below.
What caused me to do this was that I always found the Edwin Jagger 3ONE6 to be somewhat underappreciated. It is despite looking quite different in terms of shaving geometry almost identical to the Rocca, except for a more classic design. I will discuss the shared geometry and the major difference I found, the safety bar, in relation to the otherwise identical geometry.
Both razors had a rocky release and acceptance history, but eventually shaped up nicely in the end. While the Rocca could, at least this is my impression, find some more fans and success, the 3ONE6 seems to be relatively rare, particularly in the circles of wet shaving enthusiasts.
But isn't this a fate shared with the Rocca? Both razors sit IMO uncomfortably between the chairs of the enthusiast community and the average wet shaver, who just wants to get away from cartridges. For them they are expensive for no immediately recognizable reason, particularly Mühle doesn't talk about that the Rocca is made of steel much, EJ more so.
The Rocca and Mühle got a reputation hit for having supply issues initially, plus the first batches having undocumented experimentation with the head design, how to save costs and how to reduce quality problems in mass production was still not quite ironed out upon release.
Basically, the early deviations of the head had design and quality issues that were not communicated to the wet shaving community and customers in general. The average customer only cares for his razor, if it is working or not, and doesn't notice if there are minor changes in design. But treating the more enthusiast and better connected online communities similarly just doesn't end in happiness and customer satisfaction. The rather diffuse target group and handling of the communication was always the main detractor of both razors, IMO.
The Rocca head went through FOUR unofficial versions, documented in detail on Badger & Blade and elsewhere, from MIM to MIM+CNC to full CNC for the head in the end. Which was according to Mühle in the end cheaper than saving money in production and having to do extra CNC finishing.
Mühle themselves never referred to the early versions by a name or version number, and it was never communicated that there were differences between the early heads. Even Mühle Support contradicted themselves at times. By NOW there are only "V4 heads" being made, but not before Mühle Support had a few years for direct buyers from all over the world requesting specifically V4 heads, while repeatedly stating that there is only one head, later switching to explaining the story sometimes in a bit more detail. Guess people just didn't let that slide.
The Rocca handle is fully CNCed, for the steel version R94. It is the heaviest of the different handles of the Rocca (96g), the others have inlays, in one case birch bark (interesting, but I prefer non-wood, so I don't own and couldn't test how it holds up. According to user reports, it does so very well), the others have for instance the same pattern as on the steel handle put on them as black aluminum inlay on the now apparently not CNCed but cast interior handle, or birch bark wrapped around. These handles are lighter and more akin to the handles used for the aluminum inlay handles used for the 3ONE6. The 3ONE6 knurled handle is grippy, much more so than Mühle handles both in chrome and steel for the R41 for instance. It is a bit on the thin (~12mm) and short side, particularly compared to the R94 handle.
No version changes or availability problems are known for the head of the 3ONE6. The 3ONE6 funnily does it the other way around with MIM and CNC, at least according to EJ and some of their partners: "The head is comprised of stainless steel using the latest MIM (Metal Injection Molding) technology. The collar, knurled grip, and end cap are all CNC-machined for exceptional precision and consistency." Also see the photo for the small injection marks on the baseplate of the 3ONE6. Besides that, it is a very high-quality cast, visibly better than the quality offered by Rockwell for their plates. I would not necessarily rate the 3ONE6 head lower than the Rocca due to it being made in a MIM process. While CNC has better machining tolerances, proper QC and finishing of the piece can achieve a flawless result, too.
While both are very comparable in their geometry, but not in their exterior design. The Rocca is a bit more futuristic, the 3ONE6 more traditional in looks. For instance, lather channels with large slits were Mühle uses wide lather channels that are only open at the ends.
There was already a collaboration between Edwin Jagger and Mühle for the DE89/R89 head. Even beyond that, knots for EJ got sourced from Mühle, initially even the heads of EJ razors came from Merkur, later from Mühle, now they are supposedly produced locally, if a many years old support response "the manufacturing process of some of the components for the DE8 range of razors is sub-contracted to Edwin Jagger/Mühle approved manufacturers not in UK or Germany" is still true, I do not know. Shaving cream production also saw cooperation.
An at least for me as bullet stand fan annoying design element or neglected design both companies share: No bullet stands for razors! Mühle has a few single razor stands, but mostly its combined brush & razor stands, usually with the head upside down.
The Rocca is locally produced in Stützengrün, a place in Saxony with not just one ü-Umlaut but even two, the 3ONE6 in Sheffield. Which is in Yorkshire first, England second. At least this is what a local told me about it in a discord chat. Whatever that means.
The materials seem slightly different: 316L for the 3ONE6, 303 steel for the Rocca. Most likely due to local availability, the difference for wet shaving is not really given. Except you are Aquaman, in this case I would favor 316L, which is also in general a somewhat better steel.
Traditionally Mühle is leaning into adding wood or resin to handles, EJ rather favors fancy shapes and chrome and color, fancy shapes like the Chatsworth handle e.g.. For Rocca and 3ONE6 the trend continues: Both feature a full stainless steel handle, CNC machined, but also handles with aluminum inlays, with EJ offering the more colorful selection, while the Rocca has birch bark and DLC or fancy pattern aluminum inlay handle versions.
By the way… there must be a wet shaving hivemind. Just a few days before I posted this, Geofatboy, some might know him from his wet shaving videos that brought many to wet shaving, did a comparison shave. No link here, as I am quite sure it counts as commercialized Youtube channel and wouldn't fly with forum rules. I hope just mentioning it doesn't cause problems.
In this comparison, the Rocca won by a few hairs and a sound check by rubbing the hand over the cheeks.
But for my comparison shave, I forced a neutral and slightly annoyed person (wife) to touch my cheeks, initially I insisted on a blindfold, but got overruled.
The result was… see below…
But before we go there, look at this nice GIF made by user Rohleder of the UK Shaving Room Forum years ago. It shows a Rocca and 3ONE6 head overlaid.
He wrote quite succinctly:
"Same geometry? Check.
Same blade gap? Check.
Same blade exposure? Check.
Same (lack of) blade clamping? Check."
Both razors still shave differently. And it is because of the different shape and angle of the safety bar in my opinion. Both designs don't bother with scallops on the safety bar, a pity, as I like them.
The 3ONE6 is guiding a bit more towards the cap, the Rocca leans more into a slightly steeper shave. The Rocca head has more audible feedback, I think it is rather due to resonance owned to the larger handle.
While the 3ONE6 is head heavy, the Rocca R94 is quite balanced over the length and feels lighter, while actually being heavier with 96g vs 85g for the 3ONE6.
My first WTG pass favored the Rocca slightly. ATG the Rocca also cleaned up slightly better. But there is a trick for the 3ONE6 to shave exactly like the Rocca: Lean more into the bar, almost to the point of pressing it into your cheek. The shave will feel differently, but you will get a result equal to the Rocca. I used a Feather for both razors. EJ supplies the 3ONE6 with a 5-pack of Feathers, Mühle added a mini goat hair brush to the order directly from their website and added Mühle blades, which are rebranded Personna.
The result of the shaving test:
The somewhat unwilling test subject rubbed my cheeks and declared the shave to be equal. As tester I give the victory regarding pure shaving performance out of the box to the Rocca, though. It works out better intuitively than the 3ONE6. I also claim both razors shave better than the classic DE89/R89. Did I forget something? YMMV, of course.
In terms of design the more classic stainless steel look of the 3ONE6 and a simple plate make it easier to find a fitting alternative handle, while the Rocca handle screws into the plate rather deeply and is of a satin matte finish that is harder to match. I am also just not a fan of the lather channels without holes, even if they work out. Sometimes they really shoot the gunk out, though.
Both razors are rather brothers than competitors. They share design DNA. Their problem is rather the competition. Stainless steel was at their time a quite new and exciting material for razors, but the design of neither razor takes advantage of the material nor does it follow the trend to more clamping of the razor blade.
Highly clamped designs by Wolfman, Wolfman inspired designs by RazoRock, Blutt, Stando, Tatara, so many razor manufacturers these days have shown that tightly clamped down blades can shave even better and with less risk of injury as well.
Audible feedback gets lost in most cases, unfortunately. Both razors also don't take full advantage of the precision that MIM and CNC can offer, Henson shows how tight tolerances and exact geometry can guide the shaver almost automatically to a great result.
While the price of both 3ONE6 and Rocca fell over time, the Winning and Merica razors in the USA and the Greencult razor from Austria, Razorock and their clones from DSCosmetics and Yaqi show that in some cases arguably even better razors can be made for less money.
The problem there is that enthusiasts on wet shaving forums know these companies. But who else does?
It takes a while to get into wet shaving. Maybe Rocca and 3ONE6, both from establish manufacturers selling in many common shops like Amazon, help people getting suckered into the hobby?
For Mühle, the Rocca closes the aggressiveness gap between R89 and R41. The Rocca sits in the middle. For Edwin Jagger who never adopted the R41, the 3ONE6 was more often perceived as "that's not the stainless steel DE89 we wanted." Mühle finally gave in and made the R41 GS in stainless steel, maybe Edwin Jagger does the same for the DE89 one day. But I must say, both Rocca and 3ONE6 shave better than the DE/R89.
Verdict: While both are good razors, their major advantage is better availability everywhere all around the year, not just in batches quickly selling out. But for people coming into wet shaving, they still have a hard time to justify their higher price, without showing all advantages that can possibly come with the material. For people who are already infected with the razor collection bug, they don't offer anything particularly exciting either.
As entry level stainless steel razors they have strong competition by now. It is very interesting to see which razors get picked by wet shavers "upgrading" to more expensive steel razors after a while. The Rocca and 3ONE6 was one of my early choices and I was totally floored when I saw this GIF. I also felt quite a difference between them. It shows how little things can make quite a difference in wet shaving.
TobyC
Member
- Joined
- Nov 26, 2019
- Location
- Cat Pig Swamp
You shave with the blade, the "razor" is just a handle. You might "feel" a difference in use because of the weight, or weight distribution differences between different razors. I don't get different shaves from different razors. Piccolo, lather catcher, 1912, injector, TTO, whatever, they all shave perfectly if you know how to shave.
TobyC
Member
- Joined
- Nov 26, 2019
- Location
- Cat Pig Swamp
Forget about the "angle of the safety bar", the angle of the blade to your face is what matters. Grind the safety bar off and the shave will be the same as it was with it, the bars are just training wheels.
Yes, love at first site, but the divorce was quick.
lol I know I still feel the shock at your thoughts on it.. I am still feeling the love, just goes to show that YMMV is a true
@Mistertaz I personally love the look of the Rocca, especially the R95.. then the R96 but the R94 sorta just looks like any other razor. Didnt think I would like the matt look of the stainless and was intending to polish it out once I got it but that grew on me also