Private Reserve - DIY Aftershave Splash Project

Status
Not open for further replies.
Another fantastic write up @todras (y)

Just some tips of the trade (chemist) for your future experiments.

You can invest in a stainless steel spatula for weighing out the crystals. I would weigh them straight into the mortar or use wax paper in order to loose as little as possible. If the crystals stick to the spatula as well, weigh the clean spatula (or even better tare your scales with them) so you know exactly how much you are using.

You can measure out the whole amount of alcohol you want to use (in this case 20ml) and then use a couple of drops to clean out your mortar (repeat at least twice) and your spatula. Collect those also in your final brown bottle - this way you have as little loss (and inaccuracy) as possible.

It seems like you are making an over saturated (at room temperature) solution. This seems to be a bit impractical, as at room temperature you always have some crystals. Now you heat to 55C and have a ~saturated solution, but as soon as you pipette some of the solution out, the liquid cools and will crystallise out in the pipette - resulting in loss of product and inaccuracies.

So why not aim for a saturated solution at room temperature? Since you are mixing and diluting it again, it should not make a huge difference in the final scent, but will make working with it easier...My best guess is you will need ~5-10ml more alcohol (or of course ~3g less crystals). You still will have to warm the solution once (maybe even a couple of times), but it should not crystallise out, once you cool it down.

Really can't wait for your results (y)(y)(y)
 
Another fantastic write up @todras (y)

Just some tips of the trade (chemist) for your future experiments.

You can invest in a stainless steel spatula for weighing out the crystals. I would weigh them straight into the mortar or use wax paper in order to loose as little as possible. If the crystals stick to the spatula as well, weigh the clean spatula (or even better tare your scales with them) so you know exactly how much you are using.

You can measure out the whole amount of alcohol you want to use (in this case 20ml) and then use a couple of drops to clean out your mortar (repeat at least twice) and your spatula. Collect those also in your final brown bottle - this way you have as little loss (and inaccuracy) as possible.

It seems like you are making an over saturated (at room temperature) solution. This seems to be a bit impractical, as at room temperature you always have some crystals. Now you heat to 55C and have a ~saturated solution, but as soon as you pipette some of the solution out, the liquid cools and will crystallise out in the pipette - resulting in loss of product and inaccuracies.

So why not aim for a saturated solution at room temperature? Since you are mixing and diluting it again, it should not make a huge difference in the final scent, but will make working with it easier...My best guess is you will need ~5-10ml more alcohol (or of course ~3g less crystals). You still will have to warm the solution once (maybe even a couple of times), but it should not crystallise out, once you cool it down.

Really can't wait for your results (y)(y)(y)

Thank you so much for the professional advice as a chemist and the feedback mate, very much appreciate it. I bet you were laughing ear to ear reading my amateur efforts to work out WTF was going on - now that you have told me, it seems so elementary.

I will get hold of some wax paper and a small stainless steel spoon - the oils leach into the 'post it notes' I was using as you probably already know.

Upon reflection I should have asked you about this before doing all my reading, weighing and calculations. Getting crystal into solution and saturation points are something I had no experience with - live and learn. I did however irrigate the pestle and mortar with perfumers alcohol to reclaim the tonka crystals figuring that there was no need to waste anything.

I was wrangling with the idea of the solution being over saturated and subsequently added more alcohol (5ml increments), sitting at room temperature the solution is staying saturated and the crystallisation I was seeing is not occurring. Novice mistake from someone with little training in chemistry!

You can expect two tubs of the balm and two vials of the splash in the post when it's done - the balm idea actually came about as I remembered you do not like alcohol splashes :)
 
This is an amazing journey @todras !! Even documenting it as precisely as you have would have been too much for most people, let alone the manufacture! It is really interesting the difference a tiny volume of some essential oils/fragrances make to the whole scent picture - this is where you can create your "signature" scent.
My dad was a pharmacist and as an apprentice many years ago he had to make many individual formulas using similar techniques to what you describe. Fastidious attention to detail especially cleanliness of the glassware and a final rinse of the pipette/measuring device with the solution itself (not water which would dilute the solution) was required or else precipitation or cloudiness would result and the whole process had to be restarted !!
Amazing work mate - Im exhausted just reading it!
 
Ditto - incredible thread!
 
Thank you so much for the professional advice as a chemist and the feedback mate, very much appreciate it. I bet you were laughing ear to ear reading my amateur efforts to work out WTF was going on - now that you have told me, it seems so elementary.

I will get hold of some wax paper and a small stainless steel spoon - the oils leach into the 'post it notes' I was using as you probably already know.

Upon reflection I should have asked you about this before doing all my reading, weighing and calculations. Getting crystal into solution and saturation points are something I had no experience with - live and learn. I did however irrigate the pestle and mortar with perfumers alcohol to reclaim the tonka crystals figuring that there was no need to waste anything.

I was wrangling with the idea of the solution being over saturated and subsequently added more alcohol (5ml increments), sitting at room temperature the solution is staying saturated and the crystallisation I was seeing is not occurring. Novice mistake from someone with little training in chemistry!

You can expect two tubs of the balm and two vials of the splash in the post when it's done - the balm idea actually came about as I remembered you do not like alcohol splashes :)

I was absolutely not laughing my friend - on the contrary, I think you did a stellar job so far. As you have noticed, I had nothing to add in your "liquid" first couple of parts...

One of the reasons, I have still not made any soaps myself is the lack of access to professional materials and tools. I somehow don't have the imagination to make it work with simple tools, like you did - and again you did very well (y)
 
I was absolutely not laughing my friend - on the contrary, I think you did a stellar job so far. As you have noticed, I had nothing to add in your "liquid" first couple of parts...

One of the reasons, I have still not made any soaps myself is the lack of access to professional materials and tools. I somehow don't have the imagination to make it work with simple tools, like you did - and again you did very well (y)

My friend @alfredus and I are professional peers (he organic; I inorganic). I echo his comments @todras - you are doing a stellar job, and I remain fascinated with the project.
 
This is an amazing journey @todras !! Even documenting it as precisely as you have would have been too much for most people, let alone the manufacture! It is really interesting the difference a tiny volume of some essential oils/fragrances make to the whole scent picture - this is where you can create your "signature" scent.

Hey thanks for the feedback, reading your comments makes me feel a little less self conscious regarding the level of detail I am going into. It's a learning process for me entirely, it's all self taught based on my reading and understanding and trying using the strongest empirical method I can manage at home.

In regard to the small volumes especially, and I am glad you picked this up. It is critically important for the top notes of a scent mostly. An error in the base is bad, any error in with pure oils is always bad but with the top notes small amounts are critical. Additionally, and I don't think I mentioned this previously many of the individual oils are base-middle or middle-top, there is obviously some exceptions but discrete distinctions in reality do not exist therefore the concentrations in a solution are so very important as I am learning.

My dad was a pharmacist and as an apprentice many years ago he had to make many individual formulas using similar techniques to what you describe. Fastidious attention to detail especially cleanliness of the glassware and a final rinse of the pipette/measuring device with the solution itself (not water which would dilute the solution) was required or else precipitation or cloudiness would result and the whole process had to be restarted !!

That's it in a nutshell, a rigorous methodology and attention to detail, meticulous cleanliness with all equipment to avoid contamination of scents, lots of calculations prior to doing anything physical, a system of check-lists and doing anything possible to eliminate contamination or error. I say all this being a complete amateur with no formal training in chemistry and I'm taking my cues from self taught reading, things like you have mentioned here and from the professional and expert chemists on P&C who have been kind enough to provide advice and professional information.

I was absolutely not laughing my friend - on the contrary, I think you did a stellar job so far. As you have noticed, I had nothing to add in your "liquid" first couple of parts...

My friend @alfredus and I are professional peers (he organic; I inorganic). I echo his comments @todras - you are doing a stellar job, and I remain fascinated with the project.

I feel no pressure having two professional chemists reading..none at all..why would I when a lot of what I have been describing is chemistry. :whistle:

I appreciate you both telling me your professions and I am thankful for any input, criticism or outright correction if I make erroneous statements based on my being self-taught and muddling through. Hopefully it's somewhat interesting as a project, heck it's giving me something to do on the weekend, reading and learning is something I very much enjoy doing.

It would have been ok if you had a chuckle too - I'm a wet-shaver who received a solid in the post when he was expecting an oil and then had to work the rest out. Having your input as professionals is invaluable, I am really glad I was not in egregious error rather I just lacked knowledge and understanding of saturation and what not.

I know full well too I should be weighing the oils and so forth, but cut me a little slack in this regard - The scales that measure to 3 decimal places are around $750 from my looking which would make the project a no-go.
 
Nice work mate. Impressive write up! Thanks for taking the time to document! I was going to suggest you withhold your formula and only deliver via PM to those interested? On the other hand I don't suppose anyone is going to make it rich using it so maybe it's nice to have it recorded for any following DIYers.

If you have thoughts you might market it down the track, I would withhold it but that's just me.
 
Nice work mate. Impressive write up! Thanks for taking the time to document! I was going to suggest you withhold your formula and only deliver via PM to those interested? On the other hand I don't suppose anyone is going to make it rich using it so maybe it's nice to have it recorded for any following DIYers.

The formulas for the Vetiver and the Fougère that I posted can be found on the internet with some searching, I just provided the exact calculations for a 6% solution in case anyone was interested, my own formulas have different quantities of all the oils and have 4 and 6 extra oils respectively. I have no plans to share those, the fun is working them out for yourself based on what you want in a scent/accord.

I was more than happy to share the composition/ratio of the after shaves though :)
 
I will get hold of some wax paper and a small stainless steel spoon

Great advice from @alfredus
I was also going to recommend a SS lab spatula e.g. Something like these:
https://www.amazon.com/Lab-Spatulas/b?ie=UTF8&node=318042011

Also - DON'T use your pipettes as a stirring rod! You will inevitably chip the tip. Get a proper glass stirring rod (easy to make your own if you have glass rod and a Bunsen burner, but I digress)

A heap of examples of lab utensils on Amazon (I don't know the Oz suppliers these days)

https://www.amazon.com/b/ref=s9_hfn...130-5d4a-a38a-e4b1035d9133&pf_rd_i=7301207011
 
Thanks for the links and advice @GregP . Appreciated!

Also - DON'T use your pipettes as a stirring rod! You will inevitably chip the tip. Get a proper glass stirring rod (easy to make your own if you have glass rod and a Bunsen burner, but I digress)

They are plastic, single use disposable pipettes.

I'm yet to stump up the $120 or so for a set of 10 glass ones and I am also unsure how the glass ones work - I have seen some pumps for sale with them, do they need a pump as the plastic ones I am currently using feature a plastic bubble, suction is created to draw the fluid up the stem. I am unsure how this would work with glass ones ?
 
I really don't think you need to fork out 750$ for scales to get good results @todras.

Since you are working in the g region, scales that are accurate in 10mg (ie 2 decimals to g) should be almost overkill.
 
Don't worry about glass pipettes for now, you would need a ball for them as well and they are very fragile.

As long as the plastic ones you are using good quality ones, that are resistant to the alcohol you are using, you should be fine
 
I really don't think you need to fork out 750$ for scales to get good results @todras.

Since you are working in the g region, scales that are accurate in 10mg (ie 2 decimals to g) should be almost overkill.

Ok, thanks once again for the advice. I will try and look for some less precise ones within budger, I would like to move to weighing all the oils and so forth - I will need to do a lot more reading to learn how the weight system actually works in regards to concentration and formulas for scents/accords though.

Don't worry about glass pipettes for now, you would need a ball for them as well and they are very fragile.

I will take your advice, I am not sure what a ball is tbh. I buy the scientific sterile sealed 1ml and 3ml pipettes, I presume they are accurate enough for purpose.
 
The pipette ball is used to suction the fluid into the glass pipette, so you don't use your mouth (and accidentally drink the toxic fluid)
 
Absolutely superb documentation @todras - I'm loving your notes of the process and really feel a part of it. It's truly a huge effort to go to and I now appreciate the work of those who make great soaps and aftershaves.

I also now know why I appreciate the wonderful scents that the real artisans work hard to produce. So that means I understand it when there are different prices for different products made by the one person. It means they are using fair dinkum EO's and natural oils for their products. I get it that some would baulk over paying high prices for what is essentially just a smell. But when you breathe in the intoxicating scent of beautiful rich oils that are blended to perfection then... wow! For me, it adds a different dimension to a shave.

Keep going mate. This is fascinating to read. You've got a generous spirit in sharing it all for others to follow in your footsteps. [emoji106]
 
I also now know why I appreciate the wonderful scents that the real artisans work hard to produce. So that means I understand it when there are different prices for different products made by the one person. It means they are using fair dinkum EO's and natural oils for their products. I get it that some would baulk over paying high prices for what is essentially just a smell. But when you breathe in the intoxicating scent of beautiful rich oils that are blended to perfection then... wow! For me, it adds a different dimension to a shave.


Thank you for raising this important and very interesting issue @filobiblic , you are quite correct of course. There are different 'types' of EO's however, being that the methods of extraction and resultant purity vary - the common factor they all share is expense generally speaking and this expense is based on the cost of the organic material used to produce the EO, the scarcity of that material and the percentage of volatile compounds the organic material contains initially.

For example take Musk EO, Musk can be obtained from the killing of various animals and obtained in minute quantities as a result (this trade is regulated by CITES aka 'The Washington Convention', however a black market flourishes). Consequently musk from animal sources is incredibly scarce and expensive, and quite frankly due to ethical reasons I choose not to use, buy or support this specific form of the essence. Black Market Musk sources exist, and are available to purchase via .onion addresses and marketplaces for those curious. Fortunately they are illegal to procure, import or possess in Australia attracting substantial penalties.

More reasonably priced is Musk EO derived from the Hibiscus Flower seed (Abelmoschus moschatus). So here we have a sustainable, excellent source of musk that does not rely on the torture and killing of animals. For this reason a majority of perfumes (big name ones) use Musk derived from plant sources. That being said, it is still very expensive due to the low amounts the plant produces and the high volume of fresh flowers needed to produce the oil, and the method of extraction. Country of origin and purity generally dictate the still expensive prices.

The 3 methods of EO Extraction
EO extraction methods (I think as a non-chemist) are fairly complex but I will try to expand on the nature of Essential Oils and then Fragrance Oils, their prices and other features and the paradigm. Obviously it is chemistry and I am not a chemist so hopefully @alfredus and @TomG our resident Chemists will jump in and correct my inevitable errors.

  1. Cold Pressed EO - This method relies on plants with abundant sources of hydrocarbons, alcohols, ketones - Bergamot, Lemon, etc and as such is relatively cheap. There are grades of EO's of course, the cleanliness and specific methodology dictates purity but I won't go into this, it's bloody complicated.
  2. Steam Extracted EO (Distillation) - This method is quite common to those EO's that are expressed in reasonable abundance by the plants/organic materials (Lavender, Patchouli, Peppermint). Flowers, Leaves, bark, wood, etc is placed on a porous tray that sits above a volume of water, the water is heated to produce steam, the steam rises and exits through a cylindrical glass tube to condense, this condensation runs off to a tube. Dependent on the type of material, this process can take anywhere from 2 to 48 hours. It's known as fractional distillation and can be fairly complicated from my reading. The end result can be a liquid OR as I discovered an 'Absolute' which is a mass of crystals with residual solvent. There is also a rarer and now less common Enfleurage method (google) of extraction using fats or lipids but I won't get into this here
  3. Carbon Dioxide (Sub and Super)critical Carbon Dioxide (C02) Distillation - From what I gather and understand, Carbon Dioxide gas that is very, very cold is used as a 'solvent' and is introduced into a pressurised vessel containing the organic material. It exits the chamber and condenses again, taking with it the desired compounds. This method is reserved for scare or 'tricky' compounds as the yields are quite low and the process takes a long duration however it produces very pure oils. Not unsurprisingly most of the desirable EO's are produced in this way as my bank balance attests!
  4. Tinctures (Oleoresin) - Not really EO's at all as they contain vast amounts of impurities, chlorophyll etc. In short a quantity of plant material, roots, bark etc is set to rest in a vessel of alcohol or oil and left to steep for 6 months. Vanilla Extract used in cooking is an example. You take 5 or 6 Vanilla pods, slit them down the middle, place in 100mls of alcohol in a sealed container and shake daily. The vanilla seeps into solution along with everything else in the pod. This method produces low concentrations and many impurities and is therefore not used in perfumery.
As an aside, 12% C02 Extracted Vanilla (12%) is $118.00 for 5 grams - this is what we use in perfumes/splashes. Furiously expensive and in part why most wet-shaving splashes/aftershaves use either Oleoresin based Vanilla, or the even cheaper fragrance oil.

So there we are, 3 basic methods described for obtaining essential oils in a very novice (and probably incorrect) terms, I am betting our resident chemists are shuddering, shaking their heads and groaning at my descriptions but there you go :p

Fragrance Oil
These are compositions made up of Essential Oil components and aromatic chemicals. There are around 4000-5000 approved 'aroma chemicals' available to purchase from my reading, they are combined in weighed quantities and together approximate a fragrance which is sold as so and so scent. This is a simplification of course, chemists work with these compounds to produce ranges of scents that are then branded, labelled and sold to consumers.

Fragrance oils can be essential for perfumers in that there are simply some compounds and scents that are not available as essential oils, many of the most successful and largest brands of perfume available on the market comprise mostly pure essential oils but with the addition of Fragrance oils or compounds to complete the scent, the defining factor is the percentage of Essential Oils to fragrance oils.

So what??, What is it exactly you are trying to say or impart here ?
Well, to be succinct I am trying to say you get what you pay for. The thing to remember I guess is that most 'artisan' aftershave splashes are 3%-5% strength and all sell for around the same price. As I am making aftershave splashes and balms myself and therefore have a bias of sorts in the interests of full disclosure and being honest I will leave people to re-read @filobiblic's last post and what I have posted here and then to draw their own conclusions as to the products they choose to buy and use based on these examples using approximate cost values.

It has to be remembered
: Fragrance oils are often used to compliment 'bases' of expensive essential oils for the sole reason that not every scent can be produced as an essential oil. If you are making a simple fragrance say Sandalwood-Bergamot then an artisan will simply use two expensive oils, the same goes for a genuine Fougère and many other historical accords. However, and this is a very salient point, in many of the modern scent accords fragrance oils (well, specific aromatic chemicals more accurately) comprise the original accord. The risk is chucking out the baby with the bath-water when it comes to fragrance oils, but do remember too - an artisan who chooses to use much cheaper (and imho substantially inferior) fragrance oils for a whole accord is doing so for a reason.

Australian Sandalwood Steam-Distilled (Santalum Spicatum) 18ml $75.00
Indian Sandalwood Steam-Distilled (Santalum Album) 18ml $160.00
West Indian Sandalwood Steam-Distilled (amyris spicatum) 18ml $9.00
Sandalwood Fragrance Oil 100ml $12.00

Sandalwood fragrance oil can be bought wholesale at $89 for a litre, cheaper in 5 litres and even cheaper in 10 litres. So I'm sure we can all see where this is going without explicitly stating it.

Conclusion
I was highly reluctant to explore this area, mostly out of apprehension that it would be misconstrued, and to be perfectly frank and honest out of a sense of keeping with the 'group think' that seems to envelope the wet-shaving communities around the globe - we rarely meaningfully criticise, evaluate or comment on 'quality' beyond superficial and often superfluous commentary and high-fives. To evidence this I offer my substantial and extensive searching of several wet-shaving forums around the globe, certainly to the best of my knowledge I could find no meaningful discussion of formulations, essential oil V Fragrance oil issue, quantities or qualities of composition of various solutions(aftershaves) on any of them - I am of course willing to stand corrected if anyone can unearth anything comparable to what I have detailed here.

Now I am not attacking any producer or artisan specifically, I am simply presenting information based on my own reading and research and further expanding on an area with data that Phil so kindly initiated in the spirit of knowledge, learning and open discussion. Before anyone gets the pitch-fork brigade onto me, please at least consider my motives and remember that I will quite proudly stand behind my intentions and the information I have posted.

In concluding the frank and open honesty disclosure I have to admit that in order to protect many commercial interests and many often small vendors who I do not personally know but comprise our wet-shaving 'community', I have withheld information. I feel in posting a lot of what I have learnt and the information I have gathered would cause serious harm to many vendors in the wet-shaving community. The information itself would not assist anyone whatsoever in any shape or form, or by any conception or idea in creating an aftershave I will say outright.

I will leave it there, the chemists among us will no doubt already know where this is going exactly. With a little thinking and reading of this thread most people can deduce the essence of what is withheld. I won't be addressing this again, please don't ask :)

I hope you enjoyed this weeks under the influence of influenza ramble, as always corrections, comments, advice, compliments or requests for more information or explanation are always welcome. As I mentioned previously, I have now 4 or 5 aftershaves maturing that will be ready in the coming weeks. I have also obtained an excellent commercial base for an aftershave balm and experiments as to quantity of 'base' oils have commenced in that regard. It is my hope to send out samples in a week or so once the suitable containers and equipment arrives to package the items.
 
God Crikey @todras you're giving me a painful long bloody read are you trying to kill my eye balls :eek: and I almost fell :sleep: read through the whole bed time story :unsure: well only about 60% so far I've read and I can't keep up :oops:
 
God Crikey @todras you're giving me a painful long bloody read are you trying to kill my eye balls :eek: and I almost fell :sleep: read through the whole bed time story :unsure: well only about 60% so far I've read and I can't keep up :oops:

[emoji23][emoji23][emoji23]
Lawyers (solicitors?) like to be verbose and beat-around-the-bush... (Often for legal reasons!)
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top