what do you make of this edge?

Laurens

Laurens

Member
Joined
Dec 26, 2015
Location
Melbourne
2it1u1c.jpg


Here is my razor, I have worked on it for what I thought was a long time. Mostly on the 1k naniwa until it passed the TNT. I then moved to the 4k/8k norton following lynn abram's routine of circles and x strokes until i finished on the 12k naniwa. It shaved, but not well. how have I managed to get the mirrored finish not going along the width of the bevel? it is also different along the razor with no mirrored finish on parts of the edge at all. I have had this issue before and have spent more time on the 1k. Where have I gone wrong? has anyone come across this before? appreciate it!
 
Laurens said:
2it1u1c.jpg


Here is my razor, I have worked on it for what I thought was a long time. Mostly on the 1k naniwa until it passed the TNT. I then moved to the 4k/8k norton following lynn abram's routine of circles and x strokes until i finished on the 12k naniwa. It shaved, but not well. how have I managed to get the mirrored finish not going along the width of the bevel? it is also different along the razor with no mirrored finish on parts of the edge at all. I have had this issue before and have spent more time on the 1k. Where have I gone wrong? has anyone come across this before? appreciate it!
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@Mark @bald as @stillshunter @Draco Noir
 
Hi @Laurens - can you tell us a little more about this please :

Did you use tape on the spine of the razor when honing it? Was tape used last time the razor was sharpened?

It looks to me like half of the bevel has made contact with the stones while half hasn't. The 1k work is the bevel setting part of the honing, and it's critical to get the entire bevel set properly on both sides. You can't correct any problems here with higher grit stones. When checking the bevel, the TNT is certainly a help but you obviously have a microscope, so use it - you should see an even width bevel along the entire length of the blade, with all of the bevel showing that it has been in contact with the stone. Only then is it OK to move on to mid-range and finishing honing.

A quick way to check what's actually happening is to get a black permanent marker and colour the bevel on both sides in black. Just the bevel, but all of the bevel from start to cutting edge. Then give the razor a few strokes on the stone. You should see all of the black colour removed. If it's not removed evenly, your bevel isn't evenly set and you need to go back to the 1000 Grit stone and keep working on the bevel until it passes the black marker test.

If you didn't tape the razor before honing a very quick experiment you could try is to tape the spine of the razor with electrical tape. This has the effect of elevating the spine by a tiny amount, and should make sure that the "edge of the edge" really comes into contact with the whetstone. If this does make a positive difference, the razor has probably been honed with tape in the past, and you can just tape the razor and start the whole process again.

Hope some of this helps you figure out what is happening with your razor. If you find yourself struggling still, my best recommendation is to get an experienced honester to put the razor into correct shape for you. You should never have problems with the razor again after that.

We all acknowledge @Mark as the undisputed guru, and you could try contacting him via PM. I know he's extremely busy right now, but he'll probably be able to help a P&C member. Otherwise, you could ask @bald as or myself.

Good luck mate!!
 
I see a couple of different angles here, looking like the latest has been taped, and the original wasn't. As for the slight waving in the bevel, that could be caused by uneven pressure, or a slightly wavy bevel grind.
I agree with Draco, if you can't figure it out, send it off to one of the honemeisters and they should be able to correct it for you. Most of the time they'll give you a rundown of their process, so you can check your own.
 
I have no idea about honing AT ALL!

Now that I have that out of the way; If the razor was taped previously, but not for this hone, the top half of the bevel would be polished, not the bottom as is the case here. Right? This looks like the spine was taped for this hone.
 
@Laurens You definitely have a dual bevel. Everything that @Draco Noir said was spot on. A piece of tape on the spine would definitely make the biggest difference. Don't kick yourself over it as this is a common mistake that I see quite often and I'm glad we have an example here as I will do my best to describe the issue and solution in writing.

Having a basic understanding of bevel angles is very important when honing straight razors due to the spine thickness having full control on the angle of the bevel (take note of this). Here we have 2 different angles which is called a dual bevel, the most common cause for this is due to the razor being previously honed with a one or more layers of tape which will lift the spine changing the bevel angle. This may well be the case with this razor, you have actually starting cutting into fresh steel above the edge which is the lighter texture at the top, the darker texture down the bottom is where it hasn't made any contact with the whetstone and it's actually someone elses edge.

The solution for this would be to apply a layer of tape as suggested in the previous comments, kill the edge by swiping it once on either glass or the corner of the whetstone to start fresh, the edge will be dull and won't pass the TNT which means you do not come off the 1k until it does pass, if you don't kill the edge before restarting, you may be deceived and not be able to tell if you've actually made contact with the edge or if you're still working on that same edge you have in the photo. You can even try to shave some arm hairs off the 1k and it should do it without too much effort. Check often under the scope before moving on to make sure that you only have one bevel and that the angle striations (scratches) go from the base of the bevel all the way down to the very edge before moving on. Everything else should be very straight forward providing that you've set the bevel quite well.



Some Tips on your progression:

The Naniwa 1k is an efficient bevel setter, however, the particle size on the 4k norton aren't much finer than the Nani 1k believe it or not due to eastern vs western variations in the standards for grit rating. I suggest you only do X strokes after the 1k, don't be scared to do plenty on the 4k and remember that you cannot over hone on neither the 4k or 8k side of the norton. When you get to the naniwa 12k which is significantly finer than the Norton 8, you want to be extremely light and use practically no pressure (same with the 8k). Start by doing 15 strokes on the 12k and check the edge for a very uniform scratch pattern, if in doubt, you can go back to the 12k and do 5-10 strokes at a time and check the edge once more, or even do a HHT. If you feel that the edge needs more polishing, strop the razor before going back to the 12k again, that prevents over honing and reduces the chances of forming a false edge. That's about the best way I could put it in writing without making it too long, I highly recommend that you take notes on those tips or bookmark this thread as it's only normal for us to forget. Good luck my friend, keep at it and let us know how it goes.

Important tip:
Make sure you flatten your stones often, especially the 4k norton as it dishes quite easily lap it before every use. Any bevel setter, your Naniwa 1k should also be flattened before every use (except for diamond hones of course).
 
Mark said:
@Laurens You definitely have a dual bevel. Everything that @Draco Noir said was spot on. A piece of tape on the spine would definitely make the biggest difference. Don't kick yourself over it as this is a common mistake that I see quite often and I'm glad we have an example here as I will do my best to describe the issue and solution in writing.

Having a basic understanding of bevel angles is very important when honing straight razors due to the spine thickness having full control on the angle of the bevel (take note of this). Here we have 2 different angles which is called a dual bevel, the most common cause for this is due to the razor being previously honed with a one or more layers of tape which will lift the spine changing the bevel angle. This may well be the case with this razor, you have actually starting cutting into fresh steel above the edge which is the lighter texture at the top, the darker texture down the bottom is where it hasn't made any contact with the whetstone and it's actually someone elses edge.

The solution for this would be to apply a layer of tape as suggested in the previous comments, kill the edge by swiping it once on either glass or the corner of the whetstone to start fresh, the edge will be dull and won't pass the TNT which means you do not come off the 1k until it does pass, if you don't kill the edge before restarting, you may be deceived and not be able to tell if you've actually made contact with the edge or if you're still working on that same edge you have in the photo. You can even try to shave some arm hairs off the 1k and it should do it without too much effort. Check often under the scope before moving on to make sure that you only have one bevel and that the angle striations (scratches) go from the base of the bevel all the way down to the very edge before moving on. Everything else should be very straight forward providing that you've set the bevel quite well.



Some Tips on your progression:

The Naniwa 1k is an efficient bevel setter, however, the particle size on the 4k norton aren't much finer than the Nani 1k believe it or not due to eastern vs western variations in the standards for grit rating. I suggest you only do X strokes after the 1k, don't be scared to do plenty on the 4k and remember that you cannot over hone on neither the 4k or 8k side of the norton. When you get to the naniwa 12k which is significantly finer than the Norton 8, you want to be extremely light and use practically no pressure (same with the 8k). Start by doing 15 strokes on the 12k and check the edge for a very uniform scratch pattern, if in doubt, you can go back to the 12k and do 5-10 strokes at a time and check the edge once more, or even do a HHT. If you feel that the edge needs more polishing, strop the razor before going back to the 12k again, that prevents over honing and reduces the chances of forming a false edge. That's about the best way I could put it in writing without making it too long, I highly recommend that you take notes on those tips or bookmark this thread as it's only normal for us to forget. Good luck my friend, keep at it and let us know how it goes.

Important tip:
Make sure you flatten your stones often, especially the 4k norton as it dishes quite easily lap it before every use. Any bevel setter, your Naniwa 1k should also be flattened before every use (except for diamond hones of course).
Click to expand...

Gee whiz, this pretty much made sense even to me - you are a genius Mark!
 
Mark1966 said:
Don't sell yourself short mate.
Click to expand...
Of course, you could prove those are not empty words and take up the straight challenge :)
I'm sure @stillshunter could loan you a razor and at a pinch @Mark could as well, upon an extended try before you buy plan, so you don't break your self imposed sabbatical :)

While discussing the topic of straights, @Mark what is your recommendation/technique you advise for beginners and stropping ?
 
borked said:
Of course, you could prove those are not empty words and take up the straight challenge :)
I'm sure @stillshunter could loan you a razor and at a pinch @Mark could as well, upon an extended try before you buy plan, so you don't break your self imposed sabbatical :)

While discussing the topic of straights, @Mark what is your recommendation/technique you advise for beginners and stropping ?
Click to expand...
I've put a basic Stropping how to here. Just practice, even with a dull razor or butter knife and you'll pick it up in no time.
 
thanks for the input everyone!

@Draco Noir I myself didn't use tape when honing the blade, I do believe Mark did when he honed the blade originally (amazing shaves were had off his edge). I have spent so much time on the 1k stone its hard to believe that I haven't created a new bevel though! from looking at the spine its clear I have removed steel, I suppose being a newbie my perception may be off as to what is 'enough' time that being said. I can understand the theory of having to use tape to bring the edge to the stone, however the issue I have is that the very edge of the blade is making contact with the stone. I know this as I can see the water flowing over the blade as I progress and most importantly the blades edge (for most of the edge) becomes more polished as I move up in grit. I wanted to show the photo as I can understand this being the opposite issue than what might occur for most honers. Just today I was thinking about how I managed to do this. Is it possible I have used too much pressure on the 1k thus flexing the razor then when polishing the blade when not flexed only polishing the tip of the bevel? feel free to say that this is crazy but its the only way I can conceive this problem arising. Looking at countless videos on youtube it does seem that many use quite a lot of pressure when bevel setting, more than what I believe I use. Just to make things harder to figure out!

Mark, I will go ahead and tape the spine on this blade and test out what happens. Is any electrical tape ok? I hadn't come across that method of stropping in between going back to the 12k to avoid over honing. If only I had known this earlier! Looking back I think I must have over honed blades from over doing it on the 12k, wont be done again thats for sure. thanks a lot :)
 
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And @Laurens, don't forget to kill the edge as @Mark said - it will make all the difference in how trustworthy the TNT is :) And keep us posted on how things go from here..
 
2ikfp6o.jpg


So I honed with tape on and this is the result. Do I continue with the tape assuming this will remove the double bevel? On the parts of the razor where it appears polished it passes the HHT amazingly so I just need to make sure the entire blade is like this. Does having a double bevel really matter if the edge is hitting the stone??
 
Why not try both and see what works for you ?
 
It seems that this razor has serious geometry problems, not serious enough as it can be fixed but I'd say the cause would be previous bad honing before you got it, half of it is using excessive pressure that will widen the bevel severely. In this case, you have a couple of options, it obviously has an edge so there's nothing saying that you can't shave with it the way it is, if you want it to be perfect, I'd take it back to the lowest grit that you have and keep working it until it wipes those bevels off into just one bevel which is your own. It's up to you, whatever you're happy with, this is what I would personally do.
 
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