Private Reserve - DIY Aftershave Splash Project

[Sxot]

Interesting. Thanks again for posting. Now I know how to fix my attempts at spicing up a bottle of Dickensons WH with some Eucalyptus Oil - which since it was from the Pharmacy was not pure EO! At least I could if I hadn't tipped the experimental amount down the drain. I do love a long lasting scent, and I do prefer to apply via an Alcohol based splash. I wish more artisans would make a stronger (cologne style) splash but since they don't I presume I am in minority with this desire.

Here is one for you;
Could you speculate as to how B&M have managed to remove the sting from the Alcohol in their Reserve splashes?

 

[TomG]

Mid Week 4 - The Importance of Polysorbate-20 in Aftershave Splashes using Ogallala 'Bay Rum, Lime & Peppercorns' as a demonstration.

I am off today recovering from flu so I thought I would investigate the situation a bit in regard to Ogallala Bay Rum, Lime and Peppercorn Aftershave after I hinted at the problem and another member openly brought it up.

In case you missed the post, when you use this particular splash (that comes in a blue bottle) its fairly evident that you end up with droplets of oil in your hand. The manufacturer also suggests you 'shake the bottle well' which is true for all splashes, but in this case is particularly apt as I will show you.

So as I learned and discussed previously, when mixing oils and water you need to use an solubilizer such as Poly Sorbate-20 otherwise the oil does not enter solution with the alcohol, witchazel and sits at the bottom of the bottle in concentrated form. Quite frankly this may be dangerous as some essential oils in concentration can cause skin irritation and reactions and if they get into your eyes at certain dosages they are toxic (not in this case btw). There are warnings in regard to dilutions for a reason in regard to EO's.

Recap on the need to use Polysorb-20 and how much
Even if you use Fragrance Oils to make your splash, you need Polysorbate 20 as most Fragrance Oils use Jojoba oil to suspend the aromatic chemicals.

Rule of thumb - Equal part Polysorbate-20 to Essential Oils

We start with equal polysorbate-20 to volume of essential oils, some essential oils will require the use of more polysorbate-20 but we start out with equal amounts.

If we are making a 100ml bottle of splash at 5% strength we use 5ml of Essential oils and 5mil of Polysorbate-20 as our starting point.
If we are making a 100ml bottle of splash at 6% strength we use 6ml of Essential oils and 6mil of Polysorbate-20 as our starting point.
If we are making a 200ml bottle of splash at 5% strength we use 10ml of oils and 10mil of Polysorbate-20 as our starting point.
If we are making a 200ml bottle of splash at 6% strength we use 12ml of oils and 12mil of Polysorbate-20 as our starting point.

I hope this is now clear, as we increase volumes of liquids, or strength of oils we equally increase Polysorbate-20.

This sounds like something Chemists made up to sell this Polysorbate 20 stuff, how can you prove all of this ?
Well myself and others have observed the 'oil and water' phenomenon in our bottles of Ogalla Bay Rum, Lime and Peppercorn Aftershave so I will use a bottle of their splash to demonstrate what I am claiming. It also gives me a chance to show off my fancy new glass measuring columns thingo's.

I shook my bottle of Ogallala as instructed and poured 100mls of it into my glass measuring column (bottle of Ogallala for scale )

Now, we can clearly see great big whopping droplets of oil at the bottom and micro droplets floating around in the alcohol, water and witch hazel as per the ingredients on the bottle. It's like someone just mixed oil, water, witch hazel and alcohol then popped it on the shelf because it smells so darn good!

Here is a closer view, it looks like a miniature lava lamp, which would be great if I was so inclined to lava lamps - I'm not btw.

Right, so here we are then in close up - Oil and water together at last!

So it would appear, it may be the case, it could be argued that (you get the gist) either insufficient Polysorbate-20 was used when making my bottle (and many others) of Bay Rum,Lime and Peppercorns OR more simply that for whatever reason none was added when the solution was formulated.

Your guess is as good as mine, I lean towards the possibility that the concentrated oils are sent to Australia and then bottled here with the person bottling them here having absolutely no idea what they were doing or forgetting to add the Polysorbate-20 and therefore having absolutely no idea of what they were doing. The other equally valid scenario is that it is bottled in the USA and the person so doing has no idea what they are doing, or forgot to add the Polysorbate-20 and therefore has no idea what they are doing. As far as I am concerned as a consumer, I'm not really winning all round - the stuff smells fantastic though, I really like it.

Chemistry to the Rescue ?
What better way to demonstrate the need to use Polysorbate 20 than adding some to a quantity of this oil and water solution. But before we do, we need to remember that in adding more liquid to the solution we will be diluting the solution and therefore the strength of the scent.

In the interests of Science and the greater good, I have agreed to dilute 20mls of my lovely Ogallala Bay Rum, Lime and Peppercorns with Polysorbate-20 and have taken a picture of it. As I don't have any pure essential oils (aside from what's sitting at the bottom of the bottle) I cannot compensate for my addition of polysorbate-20 and therefore I dilute by action of addition.

To be absolutely correct and clear I presume that If I had a lab with condensation tubes and the other apparatus and was a chemist I know I could evaporate the whole bottle of alcohol, water, etc off then fraction off the essential oils and start again however that's out of my and most peoples reach.

Here we see the 20ml Volume of Ogallala after the addition of 1ml of Polysorbate-20. As I have no idea whatsoever what percentage of Essential Oils are in the aftershave I start at 1ml of Polysorbate-20, cap and shake the tube and look for signs the solution is clearing up. As we see here, I'm a fair way short of it being 1% strength splash.

Having some experience in these matters (I own 40-50 aftershave splashes) my guess is it will be in the 2.5% to 5% strength range as most are for purely commercial reasons, selling a 4% strength saves you 2ml of very expensive EO's on each 100ml bottle. When you get into the tens of litre range you save substantial sums of money.

A clear solution of aftershave after the addition of 4.5mils of Polysorbate-20, a good shake and a 5 minute wait.


After the addition of 4.5 mils of Polysorbate-20, a nice shake and a 5 minute wait we see a nice clear tube of aftershave demonstrating my original point that it is critical to use Polysorbate-20 or another equivalent solubilizer when mixing alcohol and oils. Wow - fantastic aside from the fact I now have diluted my Aftershave even more. I didn't bother calculating the percentages of how much, but it is simple to do so.

I would like to thank the discipline of Chemistry for making this demonstration possible, if I have made any errors in my descriptions feel free to correct me. I was going to explain how and why Polysorbate-20 works but I didn't want to drop another wall of text. The resident chemists amongst us may be able to explain it much more accurately, concisely and clearly anyway!

For the record I really like Ogallalas splashes and aftershaves, and will keep using them. I may even buy a large jug of the extra concentrated 'Cologne strength' Bay Rum, Lime and Peppercorn aftershave and 'fix it' using this method so I end up with a 5% or 6% aftershave without thick drops of oil and everything in solution.

Great post, @todras!!

 

[todras]

Could you speculate as to how B&M have managed to remove the sting from the Alcohol in their Reserve splashes?

No problem man, be glad to.

Without actually seeing his formula, based on his labelling and my using and smelling the products themselves, the answer is multi-faceted:

1. The volume/mass of the pure Fragrance and/or essential oils is very low in the 'Reserve' range - I suspect around 2.5% or less - i.e. the scent does not last long.
2. Because there is a low volume of oil being added to the solution the volume of alcohol required to 'hold' the oils is substantially lessened. Generally you need between 50% and 70% to suspend between 4% and 6% essential oil (with Polysorbate 20 ofc). If you are only using 2.5% oil this volume of alcohol becomes less and less. Alcohol stings, less alcohol means subjectively less sting AND
3. B&M uses both English Marigold (Chamomilla Recutita) & German Chamomile (Calendula officinalis) which contain chamazulene and a fair few other chemicals that are anti inflammatory, soothing, etc or so it is claimed (I have not searched the literature on this btw). They are also commonly used to mask the scent of ethanol in solutions. It has been oft demonstrated that when humans perceive a strong alcohol smell or for instance a strong iodine smell if we cut our knee or whatever, we have a conditioned response to expect the application of the solution to sting. I would suspect the addition of these two nice smelling liquids serve to lessen the perception that the solution will sting when applied particularly in the context of point 2 - whether or not the compounds in The chamomile and the Marigold actually do anything as claimed is something I have read or to be honest have the qualification to say.
   
4. As Will is using less alcohol, he may also be using more witch-hazel in his splashes and particularly may be using a water based witch-hazel (hydrosol) solution.

This is my reasoning on your question, feel free to agree/disagree or chip in

 

[TomG]

No problem man, be glad to.

Without actually seeing his formula, based on his labelling and my using and smelling the products themselves, the answer is multi-faceted:

1. The volume/mass of the pure Fragrance and/or essential oils is very low in the 'Reserve' range - I suspect around 2.5% or less - i.e. the scent does not last long.
2. Because there is a low volume of oil being added to the solution the volume of alcohol required to 'hold' the oils is substantially lessened. Generally you need between 50% and 70% to suspend between 4% and 6% essential oil (with Polysorbate 20 ofc). If you are only using 2.5% oil this volume of alcohol becomes less and less. Alcohol stings, less alcohol means subjectively less sting AND
3. B&M uses both English Marigold (Chamomilla Recutita) & German Chamomile (Calendula officinalis) which contain chamazulene and a fair few other chemicals that are anti inflammatory, soothing, etc or so it is claimed (I have not searched the literature on this btw). They are also commonly used to mask the scent of ethanol in solutions. It has been oft demonstrated that when humans perceive a strong alcohol smell or for instance a strong iodine smell if we cut our knee or whatever, we have a conditioned response to expect the application of the solution to sting. I would suspect the addition of these two nice smelling liquids serve to lessen the perception that the solution will sting when applied particularly in the context of point 2 - whether or not the compounds in The chamomile and the Marigold actually do anything as claimed is something I have read or to be honest have the qualification to say.
   
4. As Will is using less alcohol, he may also be using more witch-hazel in his splashes and particularly may be using a water based witch-hazel (hydrosol) solution.

This is my reasoning on your question, feel free to agree/disagree or chip in

A very thoughtful response as always, @todras. Your reasoning is sound. I have all 3 Private reserve splashes. In my opinion, the most significant factor is your second point - a more dilute alcohol solution.

 

[Sxot]

No problem man, be glad to.

Without actually seeing his formula, based on his labelling and my using and smelling the products themselves, the answer is multi-faceted:

1. The volume/mass of the pure Fragrance and/or essential oils is very low in the 'Reserve' range - I suspect around 2.5% or less - i.e. the scent does not last long.
2. Because there is a low volume of oil being added to the solution the volume of alcohol required to 'hold' the oils is substantially lessened. Generally you need between 50% and 70% to suspend between 4% and 6% essential oil (with Polysorbate 20 ofc). If you are only using 2.5% oil this volume of alcohol becomes less and less. Alcohol stings, less alcohol means subjectively less sting AND
3. B&M uses both English Marigold (Chamomilla Recutita) & German Chamomile (Calendula officinalis) which contain chamazulene and a fair few other chemicals that are anti inflammatory, soothing, etc or so it is claimed (I have not searched the literature on this btw). They are also commonly used to mask the scent of ethanol in solutions. It has been oft demonstrated that when humans perceive a strong alcohol smell or for instance a strong iodine smell if we cut our knee or whatever, we have a conditioned response to expect the application of the solution to sting. I would suspect the addition of these two nice smelling liquids serve to lessen the perception that the solution will sting when applied particularly in the context of point 2 - whether or not the compounds in The chamomile and the Marigold actually do anything as claimed is something I have read or to be honest have the qualification to say.
   
4. As Will is using less alcohol, he may also be using more witch-hazel in his splashes and particularly may be using a water based witch-hazel (hydrosol) solution.

This is my reasoning on your question, feel free to agree/disagree or chip in

I don't know what he has done - its some sort of black magic as far as I am concerned. I actually like a little zing so I miss that with the reserve splashes. The scent is subtle, but I wouldn't agree it doesn't last long. I actually apply twice so that probably has something to do with it - once straight after, and then again about 1hr later as I walk out the door for a little extra moisturising and a scent boost. But I have found the scent to last well into the afternoon for me, making a little resurgence once I arrive home after an easy bike ride (heat reactivating?). It's very subtle though.

Low levels of Alcohol makes sense. More WH, not so much. I can apply a heavy load of WH and or Alum before the application of a splash and still get a sting. Surely, for me at least, if it were the WH, application of a goodly amount of Thayers first would negate the sting in other splashes too. Marigold & Chamomile? Could well be the key.

 

[todras]

I don't know what he has done - its some sort of black magic as far as I am concerned.

Don't let the chemists hear you call it black magic! I hear you though he has made a very good product in this regard.

More WH, not so much. I can apply a heavy load of WH and or Alum before the application of a splash and still get a sting

I should have been clearer in what I was trying to communicate as to possible reasons why there is less stinging

Due to the reduced alcohol volume in the splashes (meaning less stinging anyway) the remainder of the volume is possibly made up by increasing the Witch Hazel ratio.

ie. 30 mls alcohol instead of 60 so to get to 100mls you need to replace the alcohol volume with something else, be it a hydrosol of witch hazel, or de-mineralised water.

Marigold & Chamomile? Could well be the key.

It is possible but imho less alcohol is more likely, there are many claims that these can have effects other than smell but I personally have not read anything substantial or empirical or noticed the effect when using products with these two in them.

Most often these two, or one of them is added to a splash as they mask the harsh smell of ethanol/perfumers alcohol very quickly, this has the advantage that the person making the splash does not have to let the batch sit for a month or two to infuse.

When a batch has 'aged' for a month or so the smell of alcohol dissipates significantly as the fragrances/oils suffuse throughout the solution even without Chamomile and Marigold - if it has both of these the smell of alcohol is almost undetectable until application.

Food for thought at any rate.

 

[Mark1966]

Mid Week 4 - The Importance of Polysorbate-20 in Aftershave Splashes using Ogallala 'Bay Rum, Lime & Peppercorns' as a demonstration.

...Your guess is as good as mine, I lean towards the possibility that the concentrated oils are sent to Australia and then bottled here with the person bottling them here having absolutely no idea what they were doing or forgetting to add the Polysorbate-20 and therefore having absolutely no idea of what they were doing. The other equally valid scenario is that it is bottled in the USA and the person so doing has no idea what they are doing, or forgot to add the Polysorbate-20 and therefore has no idea what they are doing. As far as I am concerned as a consumer, I'm not really winning all round - the stuff smells fantastic though, I really like it.

...

I've had a couple of bottles of Ogallala all purchased in the USA and all, I'd suggest, having the same issue. It is pretty much the only product where I insist that it be shaken vigorously before use. It is a totally different product without that. So I would suggest that it is not simply your first possibility of concentrated oils being bottled here - it is an issue at source.

Despite this I also really like their product and will keep using them - nothing else comes close IMHO.

 

[todras]

I've had a couple of bottles of Ogallala all purchased in the USA and all, I'd suggest, having the same issue.

This evidences strongly the idea that it's an issue at source of either lack of understanding or outright carelessness. Nothing to do with the Australian distributor.

The idea that it was bottled here was based on a thought I had that to (quite rightly) save on international shipping costs the concentrate may be sent over and bottled here using locally sourced glass bottles - from this information you have provided I concede that this is highly unlikely however.

Despite this I also really like their product and will keep using them - nothing else comes close IMHO.

I am going to buy a bottle of the cologne strength, which should come in at 15% to 18% - I can then correctly emulsify the oils with polysorbate and effect a dilution to 5-6% with all the oils fully in solution as they should rightfully be. I don't like the idea of using splashes when the oils are not at all in solution, something about it really wrangles me despite in this case it is most likely perfectly safe if very unequally distributed.

It's just sloppy what they have done to be honest. I agree nothing else comes close to Ogallala - It's simply a fantastic range of scents, really appealing & imho they have let themselves down with this lack of care or understanding.

 

[Mark1966]

This evidences strongly the idea that it's an issue at source of either lack of understanding or outright carelessness. Nothing to do with the Australian distributor.

The idea that it was bottled here was based on a thought I had that to (quite rightly) save on international shipping costs the concentrate may be sent over and bottled here using locally sourced glass bottles - from this information you have provided I concede that this is highly unlikely however.

Yep

I am going to buy a bottle of the cologne strength, which should come in at 15% to 18% - I can then correctly emulsify the oils with polysorbate and effect a dilution to 5-6% with all the oils fully in solution as they should rightfully be. I don't like the idea of using splashes when the oils are not at all in solution, something about it really wrangles me despite in this case it is most likely perfectly safe if very unequally distributed.

That sounds sensational - but I agree should not be necessary

It's just sloppy what they have done to be honest. I agree nothing else comes close to Ogallala - It's simply a fantastic range of scents, really appealing & imho they have let themselves down with this lack of care or understanding.

Discussion elsewhere - http://straightrazorplace.com/presh...-ogallala-bay-rum-vs-others-2.html#post417386 - suggests that it is because it 'contains little or no alcohol to act as an emulsifier' - which from what you indicate is entirely incorrect?

I notice on a quick 'Google' that Polysorbate 20 is claimed to be potentially carcinogenic (see, eg, http://www.annmariegianni.com/ingre...be-contaminated-with-carcinogenic-14-dioxane/ and noting your earlier comments about the veracity of online sources) - could it be a decision by Ogallala NOT to use it for that reason?

 

[Sxot]

Yep



That sounds sensational - but I agree should not be necessary



Discussion elsewhere - http://straightrazorplace.com/presh...-ogallala-bay-rum-vs-others-2.html#post417386 - suggests that it is because it 'contains little or no alcohol to act as an emulsifier' - which from what you indicate is entirely incorrect?

I notice on a quick 'Google' that Polysorbate 20 is claimed to be potentially carcinogenic (see, eg, http://www.annmariegianni.com/ingre...be-contaminated-with-carcinogenic-14-dioxane/ and noting your earlier comments about the veracity of online sources) - could it be a decision by Ogallala NOT to use it for that reason?

Could simply be a desire to limit the use of "unatural" chemicals. Here is a FAQ from Stirling on the issue;

9. Why don't you offer your Witch Hazel & Aloe Splash in scents like Sharp Dressed Man and Executive Man?
These scents come from fragrance oils which are synthetic. In order to keep these fragrance oils in suspension, it requires much more polysorbate. The additional polysorbate would not only change the product (for the worse) but we don't like using a lot of unnatural ingredients like polysorbate. We only use what is absolutely necessary to keep the oils in suspension.

Stirling came about due to a desire to be as natural as possible, hence the above sentiment. I wonder if a more extreme point of view has lead to it's exclusion completely? Of course the fact it may be ignorance is just as likely.

 

[todras]

I notice on a quick 'Google' that Polysorbate 20 is claimed to be potentially carcinogenic (see, eg, http://www.annmariegianni.com/ingre...be-contaminated-with-carcinogenic-14-dioxane/ and noting your earlier comments about the veracity of online sources) - could it be a decision by Ogallala NOT to use it for that reason?

I think the 'honest, wild and free' but no doubt lovely Marie who hosts that page, along with hundreds of others of the crystal swinging ilk are basing their suppositions on an incident that occurred in 2007 pertaining specifically to a contaminated batch of Polysorbate-20 in one brand of a childs bath soap. [Source]. Polysorbate-20 is used in hundreds of thousands of products, including just about all after shave splashes.

Polysorbate 20 is widely approved for use in Australia, in soaps and hundreds of other products including medicines that humans ingest [Source]. As with most things it is about the dosage and how exposure occurs, this is not a topic I am in any way qualified to comment on specifically though. You should make your own choices and decisions in relation to products you choose to use.

In my opinion, when I hear people use pejorative words like "unnatural" I tend to suspect they rely on supposition and feeling, rather than demonstrable science or empirical testing.

 

[Snooze]

Mid Week 4 - The Importance of Polysorbate-20 in Aftershave Splashes using Ogallala 'Bay Rum, Lime & Peppercorns' as a demonstration.

I am off today recovering from flu so I thought I would investigate the situation a bit in regard to Ogallala Bay Rum, Lime and Peppercorn Aftershave after I hinted at the problem and another member openly brought it up.

In case you missed the post, when you use this particular splash (that comes in a blue bottle) its fairly evident that you end up with droplets of oil in your hand. The manufacturer also suggests you 'shake the bottle well' which is true for all splashes, but in this case is particularly apt as I will show you.

So as I learned and discussed previously, when mixing oils and water you need to use an solubilizer such as Poly Sorbate-20 otherwise the oil does not enter solution with the alcohol, witchazel and sits at the bottom of the bottle in concentrated form. Quite frankly this may be dangerous as some essential oils in concentration can cause skin irritation and reactions and if they get into your eyes at certain dosages they are toxic (not in this case btw). There are warnings in regard to dilutions for a reason in regard to EO's.

Recap on the need to use Polysorb-20 and how much
Even if you use Fragrance Oils to make your splash, you need Polysorbate 20 as most Fragrance Oils use Jojoba oil to suspend the aromatic chemicals.

Rule of thumb - Equal part Polysorbate-20 to Essential Oils

We start with equal polysorbate-20 to volume of essential oils, some essential oils will require the use of more polysorbate-20 but we start out with equal amounts.

If we are making a 100ml bottle of splash at 5% strength we use 5ml of Essential oils and 5mil of Polysorbate-20 as our starting point.
If we are making a 100ml bottle of splash at 6% strength we use 6ml of Essential oils and 6mil of Polysorbate-20 as our starting point.
If we are making a 200ml bottle of splash at 5% strength we use 10ml of oils and 10mil of Polysorbate-20 as our starting point.
If we are making a 200ml bottle of splash at 6% strength we use 12ml of oils and 12mil of Polysorbate-20 as our starting point.

I hope this is now clear, as we increase volumes of liquids, or strength of oils we equally increase Polysorbate-20.

This sounds like something Chemists made up to sell this Polysorbate 20 stuff, how can you prove all of this ?
Well myself and others have observed the 'oil and water' phenomenon in our bottles of Ogalla Bay Rum, Lime and Peppercorn Aftershave so I will use a bottle of their splash to demonstrate what I am claiming. It also gives me a chance to show off my fancy new glass measuring columns thingo's.

I shook my bottle of Ogallala as instructed and poured 100mls of it into my glass measuring column (bottle of Ogallala for scale )

Now, we can clearly see great big whopping droplets of oil at the bottom and micro droplets floating around in the alcohol, water and witch hazel as per the ingredients on the bottle. It's like someone just mixed oil, water, witch hazel and alcohol then popped it on the shelf because it smells so darn good!

Here is a closer view, it looks like a miniature lava lamp, which would be great if I was so inclined to lava lamps - I'm not btw.

Right, so here we are then in close up - Oil and water together at last!

So it would appear, it may be the case, it could be argued that (you get the gist) either insufficient Polysorbate-20 was used when making my bottle (and many others) of Bay Rum,Lime and Peppercorns OR more simply that for whatever reason none was added when the solution was formulated.

Your guess is as good as mine, I lean towards the possibility that the concentrated oils are sent to Australia and then bottled here with the person bottling them here having absolutely no idea what they were doing or forgetting to add the Polysorbate-20 and therefore having absolutely no idea of what they were doing. The other equally valid scenario is that it is bottled in the USA and the person so doing has no idea what they are doing, or forgot to add the Polysorbate-20 and therefore has no idea what they are doing. As far as I am concerned as a consumer, I'm not really winning all round - the stuff smells fantastic though, I really like it.

Chemistry to the Rescue ?
What better way to demonstrate the need to use Polysorbate 20 than adding some to a quantity of this oil and water solution. But before we do, we need to remember that in adding more liquid to the solution we will be diluting the solution and therefore the strength of the scent.

In the interests of Science and the greater good, I have agreed to dilute 20mls of my lovely Ogallala Bay Rum, Lime and Peppercorns with Polysorbate-20 and have taken a picture of it. As I don't have any pure essential oils (aside from what's sitting at the bottom of the bottle) I cannot compensate for my addition of polysorbate-20 and therefore I dilute by action of addition.

To be absolutely correct and clear I presume that If I had a lab with condensation tubes and the other apparatus and was a chemist I know I could evaporate the whole bottle of alcohol, water, etc off then fraction off the essential oils and start again however that's out of my and most peoples reach.

Here we see the 20ml Volume of Ogallala after the addition of 1ml of Polysorbate-20. As I have no idea whatsoever what percentage of Essential Oils are in the aftershave I start at 1ml of Polysorbate-20, cap and shake the tube and look for signs the solution is clearing up. As we see here, I'm a fair way short of it being 1% strength splash.

Having some experience in these matters (I own 40-50 aftershave splashes) my guess is it will be in the 2.5% to 5% strength range as most are for purely commercial reasons, selling a 4% strength saves you 2ml of very expensive EO's on each 100ml bottle. When you get into the tens of litre range you save substantial sums of money.

A clear solution of aftershave after the addition of 4.5mils of Polysorbate-20, a good shake and a 5 minute wait.


After the addition of 4.5 mils of Polysorbate-20, a nice shake and a 5 minute wait we see a nice clear tube of aftershave demonstrating my original point that it is critical to use Polysorbate-20 or another equivalent solubilizer when mixing alcohol and oils. Wow - fantastic aside from the fact I now have diluted my Aftershave even more. I didn't bother calculating the percentages of how much, but it is simple to do so.

I would like to thank the discipline of Chemistry for making this demonstration possible, if I have made any errors in my descriptions feel free to correct me. I was going to explain how and why Polysorbate-20 works but I didn't want to drop another wall of text. The resident chemists amongst us may be able to explain it much more accurately, concisely and clearly anyway!

For the record I really like Ogallalas splashes and aftershaves, and will keep using them. I may even buy a large jug of the extra concentrated 'Cologne strength' Bay Rum, Lime and Peppercorn aftershave and 'fix it' using this method so I end up with a 5% or 6% aftershave without thick drops of oil and everything in solution.

Great stuff @todras - I have the Ogalalla Bay Rum aftershave and also the concentrated Cologne in BayRum/sage/Cedar - the immiscible oil does annoy me but it smells so fantastic I overlook it!
Does the polysorbate you added change the "feel" of the aftershave at all? What about after the dry down? Would be good to know before I repeat your experiment with the cologne - I think this would make the stuff absolutely perfect!
Thanks so much - great post.

 

[todras]

Does the polysorbate you added change the "feel" of the aftershave at all? What about after the dry down? Would be good to know before I repeat your experiment with the cologne - I think this would make the stuff absolutely perfect!

If you have not worked with Polysorbate-20 before, I would advise using a small amount of cologne (10 or 20mls say) to establish how the addition of Polysorbate-20 effects the solution. It's not rocket science, but it is a learning curve. Make sure you have pipettes or another accurate way to measure your fluids.

Adding the polysorbate-20 is simply making the liquid like most aftershave that usually contains polysorbate, unless you use too much it is not noticeable - if you use too much you are left with a soapy aftershave with visible soap bubbles that do not dissolve even when the solution rests for 10 mins . Because we do not know the initial percentage of oils, I begin at 1ml and add more slowly.

If and when I do a bottle of the cologne, what I intend on doing is not shaking the bottle at all, pouring it into a glass receptacle and then allowing the oil and water/alcohol to separate over an hour or two. I will then take off the alcohol/water solution or as much as it as possible from the top using a pipette leaving as much oil as I can at the bottom.

I will then measure the quantity of oil I have as accurately as possible and to this I will carefully add an equal volume of polysorbate-20 in an attempt to get the percentage of EO to Polysorbate-20 in as close to a 50:50 ratio as possible - obviously there will be some error, but it will be reduced. Worth noting in doing this though, and I mentioned this before is that some EO's require more Polysorbate-20 than others. Bay oil I believe is one of these - I will as a baseline go 50:50 but I may find its 50:60 or even 50:70. It's a case of addition, thoroughly mixing the solution, waiting for 2-3 mins and observing the level of opacity of solution and slowly increasing the addition of Poly as required.

Once I have thoroughly mixed the 'Ogallala' oil and polysorbate-20 thoroughly, I will add the liquid/alcohol I "fractioned" off the solution back into the oil/poly mix at it will contain some oil and therefore scent or essence of the overall mix.

 

[Snooze]

If you have not worked with Polysorbate-20 before, I would advise using a small amount of cologne (10 or 20mls say) to establish how the addition of Polysorbate-20 effects the solution. It's not rocket science, but it is a learning curve. Make sure you have pipettes or another accurate way to measure your fluids.

Adding the polysorbate-20 is simply making the liquid like most aftershave that usually contains polysorbate, unless you use too much it is not noticeable - if you use too much you are left with a soapy aftershave with visible soap bubbles that do not dissolve even when the solution rests for 10 mins . Because we do not know the initial percentage of oils, I begin at 1ml and add more slowly.

If and when I do a bottle of the cologne, what I intend on doing is not shaking the bottle at all, pouring it into a glass receptacle and then allowing the oil and water/alcohol to separate over an hour or two. I will then take off the alcohol/water solution or as much as it as possible from the top using a pipette leaving as much oil as I can at the bottom.

I will then measure the quantity of oil I have as accurately as possible and to this I will carefully add an equal volume of polysorbate-20 in an attempt to get the percentage of EO to Polysorbate-20 in as close to a 50:50 ratio as possible - obviously there will be some error, but it will be reduced. Worth noting in doing this though, and I mentioned this before is that some EO's require more Polysorbate-20 than others. Bay oil I believe is one of these - I will as a baseline go 50:50 but I may find its 50:60 or even 50:70. It's a case of addition, thoroughly mixing the solution, waiting for 2-3 mins and observing the level of opacity of solution and slowly increasing the addition of Poly as required.

Once I have thoroughly mixed the 'Ogallala' oil and polysorbate-20 thoroughly, I will add the liquid/alcohol I "fractioned" off the solution back into the oil/poly mix at it will contain some oil and therefore scent or essence of the overall mix.

Sounds good- I was just going to add the polysorbate to the mixed solution of Ogalalla but your method sounds better - I gather thats the best way anyway - solubilise your EO first with the polysorb then add in the alcohol.
Will give it a try !

 

[Sxot]

So I took delivery of some B&M aftershaves today. They have oils floating on top. This is because there is no Polysorbate-20 used? Is that right? Did I learn something here?

 

[GregP]

If and when I do a bottle of the cologne, what I intend on doing is not shaking the bottle at all, pouring it into a glass receptacle and then allowing the oil and water/alcohol to separate over an hour or two. I will then take off the alcohol/water solution or as much as it as possible from the top using a pipette leaving as much oil as I can at the bottom.

I will then measure the quantity of oil I have as accurately as possible and to this I will carefully add an equal volume of polysorbate-20 ...

If I can suggest a simpler way? Pour it into a suitable sized measuring cylinder and let it settle. Read the volume directly from the measuring cylinder. No farting around trying to separate the layers.

 

[todras]

So I took delivery of some B&M aftershaves today. They have oils floating on top. This is because there is no Polysorbate-20 used? Is that right? Did I learn something here?

I reckon you definitely learned something man and your reasoning is good.

There are a few possibilities - these depend on which specific B&M product we are talking about, you didn't say which. To be 100% honest I am not sure that Will uses Polysorbate-20 specifically, he may use another similar product.

So the possibilities in my mind immediately are:
1. The oils have come out of solution for whatever reason and there is a sufficient Polysorbate ratio, shaking the bottle for 20 seconds should fix this.
2. There is an insufficient polysorbate ratio to oil, therefore oils are falling out of solution.
3. What you are seeing is not oil as it is floating, not sinking.
4. It may not be a 'scent oil' that is floating but rather a skin care additive (hydrosol etc) - depends on which B&M product you have.

If I can suggest a simpler way? Pour it into a suitable sized measuring cylinder and let it settle. Read the volume directly from the measuring cylinder. No farting around trying to separate the layers.

Duly noted. You are quite correct, I was over complicating it. Thank you.

 

[Sxot]

I reckon you definitely learned something man and your reasoning is good.

There are a few possibilities - these depend on which specific B&M product we are talking about, you didn't say which. To be 100% honest I am not sure that Will uses Polysorbate-20 specifically, he may use another similar product.

So the possibilities in my mind immediately are:
1. The oils have come out of solution for whatever reason and there is a sufficient Polysorbate ratio, shaking the bottle for 20 seconds should fix this.
2. There is an insufficient polysorbate ratio to oil, therefore oils are falling out of solution.
3. What you are seeing is not oil as it is floating, not sinking.
4. It may not be a 'scent oil' that is floating but rather a skin care additive (hydrosol etc) - depends on which B&M product you have.



Duly noted. You are quite correct, I was over complicating it. Thank you.

All good points.

Products were Reserve Cool, and Rhapsody Tonique. Shaking does not bring them back into solution. I can see little droplets which over the day collect together again at the top. I don't see Polysorbate on either products ingredient list.

Some oils are less dense than water and so float.

I find this fascinating!

 

[Sxot]

Belay that. The Tonique no longer has the separated 'oils'. The reserve does.

 

[todras]

Some oils are less dense than water and so float.

Sure, but aftershave solutions are in the range of 50% - 70% alcohol and oil has a greater density than alcohol and therefore sinks.

I have the same splashes that you mention and both contain Chamomile (Matricaria chamomilla) and also Marigold (Calendula) extract. The most likely cause of the precipitate you are seeing is one of these two, I have seen the same phenomena in my test runs using both of these hydrosols whereby organic particles collect small amounts of oils and rise to the top of the mixed solution, even with polysorbate-20.

I don't really see it as a problem, it is not pure essential oil falling out of solution rather flower essence at a low, fairly unrefined concentration.