Knives & Knife sharpening

[Nick the Knife]

I just ordered the Tojiro DP3 240mm gyuto from BluewayJapan on eBay. I'll check in again when it arrives with some impressions, but I think I'll be happy.

Yes, I think you will be too. He's a good seller, you should have it within a week.

Went for the 240mmm eh? Did you know that at CKtG the 210mm outsell the 240mm's by 6 to 1. Lil bit of stat trivia for you - the owner dropped that tidbit on me when I was trying to decide which one to go with, that said more steel rather than less is a good rule of thumb and once you use a proper pinch grip what had originally seemed too big all of a sudden is just a good size. Nice choice.

 

[Mong.]

His communication so far has been fantastic, and I think it may have already left Japan on it's way to me. I'm hoping it will turn up at the start of next week. I went with the 240mm because I sometimes feel that the 8" Wusthof knives we have at the moment are a bit small, especially when cutting up large amounts of meat. I do employ the pinch grip, so I think the extra length will be quite useful. I'm not surprised that most people go for the 210mm though, it seems quite a natural size when compared to the 8" Euro chefs knives that most people are probably more familiar with.

 

[Pjotr]

Just received this from Bluewayjapan:

eBay Australia: Buy new & used fashion, electronics & home d

Great value. Particularly if unlike me, you're right-handed. Gotta get yourselves a single bevel blade, folks. It's got a hollow ground back which is amazing and I wasn't expecting that for the price. I reckon the hollow chisel grind defines Japanese tools. Things are a bit uneven and the profile is just a slightly bit wavy but from what I've read that's pretty standard with single bevels and it'll take a few sharpening sessions to sort out. Goes without saying that it's insanely sharp, with half the cutting angle of a normal 50/50 grind. Will have to see how the steel holds out. Only good for vegetables and other soft stuff. Wicked knife!

 

[Mong.]

I got a package in the mail yesterday...



What was inside?



I gave it ago last night making dinner and I'm exceptionally happy with this purchase. The blade is thin but quite rigid, with barely any flex to it. It was a good decision opting for the 240mm over the 210mm, I've already decided that this length is better for me than the 210mm/8" alternatives. I was removing the fat from some brisket to make a beef rendang, and the extra length of the blade made the job really easy. One clean slice underneath the fatty layer leads to a much cleaner and nicer looking result than anything I could previously achieve, and it cut down on time by a few minutes because I wasn't stopping and starting and moving the meat around. This knife was very sharp out of the box, sharper than anything else in the kitchen. It cut through onions, carrots and capsicum really easily. Doesn't require any exertion to use, it just glides through everything. One area of distinction was chopping up herbs, the extra sharpness allows you to cut them exceptionally fine. Handy if you're into Thai and Malay/Indo cooking that uses lots of spice and curry pastes.

One thing I really need to do now is to get a better chopping board. We have a pretty cheap wooden one that works okay (I'll probably stick to this one exclusively with the Tojiro), but the rest are all plastic ones that I don't want to use with decent knives. If I can track down one similar to what PJ knocked up for himself, I'll be sorted. I've also kinda gone and ruined myself purchasing this knife. Now that I see the potential of good Japanese knives, I'm not really content to use the other knives we have. I think I'm going to "need" to get a 120-150mm utility knife for onions and filleting and whatnot.

Just received this from Bluewayjapan:

eBay Australia: Buy new & used fashion, electronics & home d

Great value. Particularly if unlike me, you're right-handed. Gotta get yourselves a single bevel blade, folks. It's got a hollow ground back which is amazing and I wasn't expecting that for the price. I reckon the hollow chisel grind defines Japanese tools. Things are a bit uneven and the profile is just a slightly bit wavy but from what I've read that's pretty standard with single bevels and it'll take a few sharpening sessions to sort out. Goes without saying that it's insanely sharp, with half the cutting angle of a normal 50/50 grind. Will have to see how the steel holds out. Only good for vegetables and other soft stuff. Wicked knife!

That's pretty cool looking. I couldn't find much on Sakai Yoshiharu, but I assume from the little I've read that the maker is called Yoshiharu and it is made in Sakai. I'm interested to hear how you go with the single bevel, have you used one before? I was looking at the 165mm deba in the same line before, so I'm pretty keen to hear what you think about the steel quality and durability.

 

[Pjotr]

..........One thing I really need to do now is to get a better chopping board. We have a pretty cheap wooden one that works okay (I'll probably stick to this one exclusively with the Tojiro), but the rest are all plastic ones that I don't want to use with decent knives. If I can track down one similar to what PJ knocked up for himself, I'll be sorted.............

Honestly, if I had the machinery I'd be knocking'm up for the cost of materials and shipping. There is a maker in Australia. Not cheap. I'll find the link for you and post it. Don't get too hung up on end grain. it looks fantastic but I've had normal boards for years and can't honestly say that they blunted my knives but then again I wasn't as anal about it as I am now.

Edit: Juat found this one at Harvey Norman for bugger all. Looks like an amazing bargain if you ask me. http://www.harveynormanbigbuys.com....tm_medium=affiliate&utm_campaign=prcomparison

That's pretty cool looking. I couldn't find much on Sakai Yoshiharu, but I assume from the little I've read that the maker is called Yoshiharu and it is made in Sakai. I'm interested to hear how you go with the single bevel, have you used one before? I was looking at the 165mm deba in the same line before, so I'm pretty keen to hear what you think about the steel quality and durability.

It is a great looking bit of kit. I'm still not sure what the deal is with japanese knives. I've seen the exact one with a saya and a bit more attention to the grind go for three times the price. I think as an entry level buyer you basically get the steel without the pazaz (sexy handle, perfect grind, a saya etc). I'm happy with this knife. It gets sharper every time I go near it with some stones so that's got to be a good thing. And it's left handed. As a lefty I can assure you there's something deeply satifying about something that only lefties can use properly.

I've never had a left handed knife before but nearly all my wood working tools are chisel ground (i.e. single bevel) so it's not unfamiliar territory.

 

[Nick the Knife]

Nice knife PJ. Likewise Mong, nice to see someone's listening to my hyping up of the DP3's.

Yes that chopping block is a good buy, even with the postage. That said plastic boards aren't a problem for knives....so don't worry about that with your current one. They're soft enough to not cause edge probs. Just avoid the glass and ceramic ones plus cutting up on plates etc as many folks do.

Ok well finally I've solved my knife storage problem. Whilst ideally I'd have preferred to have crafted something out of some nice timber myself that will have to be down the track when I have my tools and a proper work area etc.

In the interim period I've gone with this....which I'll say in advance isn't going to be everyone's cup of tea but it was actually very close to perfect for the imperfect problem I had:
Image - TinyPic - Free Image Hosting, Photo Sharing & Video Hosting
Image - TinyPic - Free Image Hosting, Photo Sharing & Video Hosting

I was actually chasing pretty much exactly this but had no luck – then I spotted it in the 'Spotlight' catalogue (which is a bonus as they were 40% off).

Is made of bamboo – square(rectangular would perhaps have been better but no big deal). Around 17cmx17cm at base....~22x22cm at top. Seems to have a satin varnish on it. ~26cm in height. $18 (orig. $30)

I cut a square of VERY thick cardboard (like 4 ply stuff, used by Weber to pack their BBQs) into the bottom of it to minimise any tips hitting the bottom – although it's unlikely to happen due to height/fill level.

I then picked up a 10kg sack of long grain rice, which happened to be on special at Aldi. $10.Filled to within ~2cm of the top and popped the knives in.It works really well.....everything is held very nicely in place and no probs with rice coming out etc.

Basically it almost ticks ALL the needs I had for an ideal holder....the only thing is I'd prefer it to look a lil different but I can stain it etc if need be. It holds everything very well, really takes good care of the edges and minimises moisture around them, holds EVERYTHING (bone cleavers and ceramic hone included! Not many could do that).....easy to put in and out and can be arranged to suit my whims. Pretty much perfect.

Amazingly it even got the wife's approval.....I thought it'd have to grow on her but she was very happy with it. Matches the very large bamboo cutting board I have (which they also sell at Spotlight, double sided one with a nice bevelled juice moat around the outside on one side and handy little silicon footrests).

And was all done for well under $30.

I have to say it's VERY nice having all my knives at my fingertips.....before I had to use a small block, which only held around 5 of them and the rest were in a cupboard under where I prep food. Major PITA.

 

[Pjotr]

Very nice looking set up. Like the idea of using rice. Seen something similar in kitchen shops using thin plastic wire placed vertically in the container. Rice seems a far better idea. Keeps everything dry too.

 

[Mark1966]

Very cool idea - how clever!

 

[Mong.]

Nice one Nick, that looks really good. Unfortunately, I don't think it would get the tick of approval in my house. I think I'll have to resort to a magnetic rack, but I like the way a block looks on a bench. Especially a functional and economical one like yours.

Thanks for the link PJ, I actually wound up getting a nearly identical one from Harris Scarfe. It's also rubberwood/acacia. They had two sizes, that size for $25 and a bigger one for $35. I opted for the larger, just because I like to arrange my ingredients in groups on the chopping board rather than making more mess. The label says to oil it with vegetable oil. It's much cheaper than the fancy stuff like orange oil, so if it won't have any negative repercussions I'm just going to use that. I also picked up a nice enameled cast iron casserole pot. It's 5.2L, so it's quite big and heavy. Sticker price said $330. I took it for $50. Just another example of RRP's that are total BS.

I ducked into Spotlight to see if they had any cheap skillets. They did have a three skillet set, but it was $100 even after discounts and I only really want one big one. The search continues.

 

[Pjotr]

The label says to oil it with vegetable oil. It's much cheaper than the fancy stuff like orange oil, so if it won't have any negative repercussions I'm just going to use that...........

Orange oil does smell beautiful but there's nothing wrong with a vegetable oil. I've always used olive oil. People keep telling me that it goes off or gets gluggy but I've never ever seen it do that. If you really want to get fancy you can make up a polish using oil (olive, tung, peanut, orange........whatever) and beeswax (just grab a candle from somewhere). Roughly 4 (oil):1 (wax). I made one with orange oil and it ended up more like 3.5-1.5 but you can just adjust as you go along. Heat your mixture in the miocrowave for a minute or so or until the wax is dissolved then stir it frquently while it cools down. Nice stuff! Keeps your board waterproof.

.........The search continues.

Isn't it nice to have another AD! And the better half generally doesn't mind if the kitchen gets a bit of attention. Win, win, browny points all round.

 

[Mong.]

Little update for anyone interested. The Tojiro DP continues to be great, but it has chipped. I was surprised by this at first and had planned to blame the VG10 which is known to be a little brittle, but I know why it's happened. My dad has shitty knife skills brought about by a long time using dull knives, and the pressure with which he's been banging into the chopping board is just silly. So, he's been barked at and the Tojiro has gone out the back to my house away from him. I've tried to reinforce the notion that the blade should be doing all the work, and that he should have a look on YouTube at some technique videos. I guess this is a little "buyer beware" post. Anything with good technique will keep this pristine I suspect, I've had no problems using the rocking motion or slicing with the tip for precision stuff. Anyone who just chops downwards and smacks into the board will have this happen too, I suspect.

The interesting thing is that the chips seem to have come off the side edge of the blade. This is probably good for me as it'll be easier to repair on the Edge Faux, but I think I'll have to reprofile the blade to work it out. I don't want to do that yet as it's still very usable.

This is still pretty new, and I don't want to screw the seller, but is this something I should be contacting him about?

 

[Pjotr]

It's all part of the fun! Unless the chips are really large and seriously interfere with the cutting adge I'd be inclined to let them gradually get sharpened out rather than reprofiling the whole thing. It's not only a lot of work but if, like me, you're just starting to seriously tackle knives like this, it's also a bit of a leap in to the unknown. I've just started doing bigger jobs like thinning blades and reprofiling and there's a fair amount of trial and error. I'm sure you can read up on it but there's nothing like first hand practical experience. Don't know if I'd want to subject my new knives to this before trying something similar on an old knife first.

If you can pipoint the reason for chipping (ie your father dearest using it like an axe) contacting the manufacturer is pretty pointless really.

 

[Mong.]

Cheers for the advice Pj, I'll leave it be for now. How are you getting along with that Sakai usaba? I'm eyeing off the petty knife in that range, and the price is pretty right. For a bit more though, I could go stainless and get one of the Tojiro ones. Seems to me that the Sakai are a good way to dabble in carbon steel, it's pretty inexpensive.

 

[Pjotr]

Cheers for the advice Pj, I'll leave it be for now. How are you getting along with that Sakai usaba? I'm eyeing off the petty knife in that range, and the price is pretty right. For a bit more though, I could go stainless and get one of the Tojiro ones. Seems to me that the Sakai are a good way to dabble in carbon steel, it's pretty inexpensive.

I'm sure the petty knife in that range will be just fine but a cheap single bevel is an acquired taste and a bit of a gamble (from what I've read and I can now back that up). I'm having to do a lot of re-profiling and re shaping on the back. I don't mind as it's a learning curve and I'm learning a hell of a lot about knives and stones. I sort of knew what I was letting myself in for but it's a lot of work. The back of a hollow ground usuba should be dead straight and flat along the length. It isn't and because of that the profile has distinct dips in it due to the wavey grind. Because of this I've cut the tip back by 10mm but the valley in the middle is taking a lot longer to cure. The steel is fantastic (haven't got a clue what it is) and if they'd given it to the master sharpener rather than the apprentice it would be a perfect knife. As it is it'll be a few months of farting around before I can say that. Inspite of that it's insanely sharp where it should be. We're talking surgically sharp here.

Knowing what I know now I think I would have sent it back unless I was looking for a project. I have no regrets though and I'm really loving all the sharpening. Just completely restored an old Sheffield carbon carving knife.

 

[Mong.]

Sounds like fun mate, it's probably pretty handy to have a fairly cheap project knife at this stage. Were you disappointed at the condition it was shipped in? I think I'd expect the grind to at least be consistent, even if it wasn't razor sharp. Sounds like a good bit of kit though, and your praise for the steel is nice to hear. Are you using it mainly for vegies? One concern I have with carbon steel is the amount of onions I chop, and thus, staining the blade at first. You don't seem the type to mess around with forcing a patina, is it naturally starting to come up yet? I ask because I have a carbon steel nakiri type thing from Vietnam that cuts like a champ, but it is damn ugly and still has a bit of a smell. I'm contemplating going down to the butcher and seeing if he has any cheap and thin slabs of meat and grabbing one to bury it in for a while. I'm in an Italian cooking phase at the moment, I need to cut acidic things.

The good news for me is that this Sakai 150mm petty knife has a double bevel, and is very similar in dimensions and weight to the equivalent Tojiro stainless in the same length. Only the steel and the handles are different really, aside from the $6. They're both quite tempting, and between both of them I'd be set for knives for a little while. Aside from a deba maybe...

I can get a Duke 1 or a knife. Decisions, decisions.

 

[Pjotr]

They both look really nice those pettys. The Sakai knife I've got doesn't seem to stain or take on much of a patina at all. I just rinse it clean and dry it during and after use. All I use the usuba for is vegetables. No issues whatsoever. My Tojiro carbon steel is a bit more reactive but again doesn't seem to do much with the occasional clean and wipe. I'm a big fan of carbon steel. I don't use a petty or general purpose (or whatever the western equivalent is) knife at all. However it's all my wife uses. One day I'll have to wean her off the one she's got now ( a Furi). She just goes by feel and balance and doesn't care about much else. She loves that thing. Of course I keep it sharp for her.

 

[Nick the Knife]

Multi-response here, so bear with me.

I ducked into Spotlight to see if they had any cheap skillets. They did have a three skillet set, but it was $100 even after discounts and I only really want one big one. The search continues.

You owe me....again. ;-)

The Tojiro DP continues to be great, but it has chipped. I was surprised by this at first and had planned to blame the VG10 which is known to be a little brittle, but I know why it's happened. My dad has shitty knife skills brought about by a long time using dull knives, and the pressure with which he's been banging into the chopping board is just silly.

Ouch that sucks. But that is the scouting report on VG-10, it chips VERY easily and please I mean absolutely no offence by it at all but this is a perfect example of why when people say they should buy Jap knives etc I do caution them on jumping in without considering the forgiving nature of softer steeled Euro knives. It's been a modern trend which I put down a bit to the food culture from Masterchef etc but people really shun the Euro stuff believing that it's now technically inferior etc but thats a gross over-simplification. Right tool for the job applies and also for the USER. Honestly my mother and her hubbie shouldn't be allowed to use anything more that the softest steeled knives as they do all manner of dumb stuff e.g cutting frozen food, using the tips of knives to prise things out, cutting on plates. They drive me barney. Is a real bummer you chipped your knife but hopefully it's not a bad chip.......as it'll still very very usable, a nasty one can make cutting protein's not so fun - as you get a 'tearing pull' feel when the chip hits the meat.

I concur with PJ, unless it's a BAD chip just leave it be (perhaps just go over that one spot with the EF to 'smooth' it) but I'd not reprofile - you'll just loose lots of blade, it will take FOREVER (as VG-10 is hard!) and you'll almost certainly not be able to put as good an edge back on. Maybe post a picy up?

This is still pretty new, and I don't want to screw the seller, but is this something I should be contacting him about?

Again I mean this in the nicest possible way but DO NOT do this under any circumstances.....it will only result in extreme embarrassment for you. It's clearly a case of a very delicately edged knife being used roughly and suffering a chip. The harsh truth is its completely on the user....as it's not a product that can be used that way. Plus the seller is just a middle man, you could send an email to Tojiro itself saying you're dissappointed in it's products but I'd imagine you'll get a bog standard apology and referral to their website on proper use etc. But contacting the seller, who is a very knowledgable knife user will not bode well...if it'd broken on route when posted, different story.

One concern I have with carbon steel is the amount of onions I chop, and thus, staining the blade at first. You don't seem the type to mess around with forcing a patina, is it naturally starting to come up yet? I ask because I have a carbon steel nakiri type thing from Vietnam that cuts like a champ, but it is damn ugly and still has a bit of a smell. I'm contemplating going down to the butcher and seeing if he has any cheap and thin slabs of meat and grabbing one to bury it in for a while. I'm in an Italian cooking phase at the moment, I need to cut acidic things.

Well FWIW having tried several forced patina's I can super strongly endorse a 'tea patina'. Have put on all my carbons and I absolutely love it. Easy to apply, looks very good and is really durable. Read up on it over in my WP thread - all the info is there. Came to me highly recommended by another very knowledgable user and it's excellent - makes the carbons almost as user friendly as the SS knives.

 

[Mong.]

You were up early for that essay, Nick! Cheers for your thoughts re: the Tojiro. No offense taken, there's nothing wrong with my cutting techniques because I bothered to learn properly when I started cooking 3-4 years ago. The old man is another story, he's a bit stuck on the way he's always done it and having blunt knives for a long time has reinforced bad habits. Like trying to cut through the chopping board. He's banned from the gyuto until he improves. :laugh:

It's not a bad chip at all, it's quite small. The reason I contemplated contacting Blueway is because the chip is quite irregular in shape. It's almost as though the outer layer has chipped off the VG10 core, and I wondered if that might be a manufacturing fault. I was doing some reading yesterday about how forging and tempering and whatnot (my terminology is very average) can cause chipping if there's a fault, but I'll take you and PJ's advice and chalk this up to user error. For what it's worth, I think you're both right. I'll chuck up a pic tonight. It still cuts smoothly and is still pleasantly sharp, so I'm not going to touch it up just yet. I'm not disappointed in this at all, I think it was a great purchase. I certainly wouldn't be considering purchasing another one if I had doubts about it! I'm still not all that knowledgeable about Japanese knives, but the DP range seems to deserve it's place as the go-to knife for someone looking to start out.

I'm having a read of the WP thread at the moment. I think I'm going to try and clean the shit off my current carbon blade and try a tea patina. Cheers for the tip on the skillet, I'm going to go hunt one down this arvo.

 

[Mong.]

Bought the skillet for $12. Only a couple of places in Melbourne still had stock when I called them, and conveniently one of them was in the suburb next to where my brother was playing cricket today. I've got a skillet, and I've had a few beers. It's turned out pretty well!

 

[Nick the Knife]

Bought the skillet for $12. Only a couple of places in Melbourne still had stock when I called them, and conveniently one of them was in the suburb next to where my brother was playing cricket today. I've got a skillet, and I've had a few beers. It's turned out pretty well!

Sounds like a good day. Well word of warning make sure you season it properly a bunch of times before using it .........go easy for the first bunch of times you use it - cooking oily stuff only for a while is a good way to semi-season and break it in (so to speak) - try to avoid putting salt in it whilst cooking ......and make sure you wipe it out with a wet cloth or paper towel when it's still warm (not scalding hold!).

Oh and lastly at all costs avoid washing it with detergent - as you would anything else. You'll strip a lot of the seasoning and have to start over. Oh and before I put mine away early on when it's definitely got no water left on it I might rub a very thin smear of oil on it (nut/seed oils are best as they don't go rancid). I keep a lil piece of cloth thats had a dribble of ricebran oil on it every now and then.

When you season it go VERY thin on the oil on them.......best to season a few things at once as it does use the oven very hot for a while (hence I did all 3 of mine at same time). If the oven is going to be on for a while I'll pop a lil oil on them and pop them in with whatever else is in there (assuming its on high temps).

My 3 have a nice semi-glossy finish to them and are relatively non-stick, But you MUST read up on using it and not confuse it with how you'd treat a SS or non-stick pan or it'll be a major PITA. I'm stoked with mine....cheap as chips and perform as good as the best pans in many ways.