Knives & Knife sharpening
- Thread starter Nick the Knife
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Anakist
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Just ordered a Tojiro Flash slicer. It will be my first VG-10 knife. Excited!!
James
James
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Hope you're happy with it but IMHO the Flash range are quite overpriced for what they are. Really no better than Tojiro's DP3 series just look much sexier and have Heston's 'endorsement'. That all said they're good knives but for the significant coin they generally cost one could possibly grab something a tad more punchy. Have a link to the one you ordered?
Anakist
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Nick,
I got this one.
I got it through work, we have an account with Zen so I am not paying that much for it. I was going to get a DP3 but it just says it has "a core of stain resistant high carbon steel alloyed with Molybdenum, sandwiched between two layers of 13-chrome stainless steel", and the Flash specifies VG-10.
I nearly got one of the Sashimi knives, but I don't think a single edge is correct for what I want.
James
I got this one.
I got it through work, we have an account with Zen so I am not paying that much for it. I was going to get a DP3 but it just says it has "a core of stain resistant high carbon steel alloyed with Molybdenum, sandwiched between two layers of 13-chrome stainless steel", and the Flash specifies VG-10.
I nearly got one of the Sashimi knives, but I don't think a single edge is correct for what I want.
James
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Hey James,
$290, man alive - gee I hope you got a nice discount. By Zen I assume you mean the Aussie distributors for Tojiro? Are you in the foodie industry?
They've reasonable prices on those 'Traditional Japanese' Tojiro's at present, they're not Tojiro's high end steel but are as good as Global's etc - they're all from this range: :::Tojiro Molybdenum Vanadium Steel Series - TOJIRO:Net:::
Folks could do a lot worse than getting a few of those.
The DP3 line definitely has a VG-10 core, hence the styling and Damascus finish is the only differences between the Flash and DP3 lines. Thats why the DP's are regarded as the best value entry point into Jap knives. Only bad comments I've heard are on their handles being a bit uncomfy.
Word of warning too....Tojiro's Flash range is hardened to the technical limits for VG-10 steel.....they also have been sharpened to quite an acute angle....hence they've a reputation for chipping ....badly! So be very careful. I know of someone who bought that EXACT same knife and used it carving roasts etc and chipped it badly on the cooked bones. Getting a big chip out of that blade would be a nightmare/impossible. So you have been warned.
$290, man alive - gee I hope you got a nice discount. By Zen I assume you mean the Aussie distributors for Tojiro? Are you in the foodie industry?
They've reasonable prices on those 'Traditional Japanese' Tojiro's at present, they're not Tojiro's high end steel but are as good as Global's etc - they're all from this range: :::Tojiro Molybdenum Vanadium Steel Series - TOJIRO:Net:::
Folks could do a lot worse than getting a few of those.
The DP3 line definitely has a VG-10 core, hence the styling and Damascus finish is the only differences between the Flash and DP3 lines. Thats why the DP's are regarded as the best value entry point into Jap knives. Only bad comments I've heard are on their handles being a bit uncomfy.
Word of warning too....Tojiro's Flash range is hardened to the technical limits for VG-10 steel.....they also have been sharpened to quite an acute angle....hence they've a reputation for chipping ....badly! So be very careful. I know of someone who bought that EXACT same knife and used it carving roasts etc and chipped it badly on the cooked bones. Getting a big chip out of that blade would be a nightmare/impossible. So you have been warned.
Anakist
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Yeah Zen Imports. I am in Industrial sales (Like Blackwoods, BOC, and Protecta all in one shop) but we do a lot of LED Lenser and a bit of Leatherman so have a Zen account. I will end up paying around $100 less than that, which I am happy enough about.
The wife is getting the 165mm Deba / Santoku (it says Deba some places and Santoku in others) from that range. It was bloody cheap! Only problem I might have is it is our first chisel grind.
Damn I wish I had have seen that before I ordered. I was = this close to buying the DP3! I did a bit of googling, but only found the Tojiro spiel which didn't specify the steel. Still, I will have _my_ first sexy knife, _my_ first damascus blade as well as the first VG10 in the house!
Word of warning too....Tojiro's Flash range is hardened to the technical limits for VG-10 steel.....they also have been sharpened to quite an acute angle....hence they've a reputation for chipping ....badly! So be very careful. I know of someone who bought that EXACT same knife and used it carving roasts etc and chipped it badly on the cooked bones. Getting a big chip out of that blade would be a nightmare/impossible. So you have been warned.
Thanks. I did read it was 61 - 62 HRC and 15 deg angle. I have an Ikea roller sharpener I use for a double bevel and edge alignment on the other knives, so hopefully that and not using it much will keep it in good shape! It will be a display trophy for the most part. I will use it for dinner parties with boneless roasts!!
Thanks.
James
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If you ask me it's a pretty daft idea using a rock hard Japanese gyuto style knife to cut up a roast. You need a thin flexible knife that really doesn't have to be razor sharp. In other words everything that your typical j knife isn't.
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Yes, well a gyuto and a slicer are completely different styles of knives. Slicers are specifically tapered in their cross section far more than 'gyutos' for a very thin blade profile. Is like comparing a Nakiri to a cleaver.
Unsure why you'd not want a very sharp knife for cutting cooked protein. You seem to be alluding to whats essentially a boning knife would be ideal, which I'm sure would do a perfectly fine job. The person I knew just was a numbnut and spent the $$$ and assumed the knife was bulletproof. Thats why I flagged it to James as I know he's not like this other chap.
Anyway I'm not here to play semantics - 'slicers' are a widely made style of knives done by dozens of companies and cutting up large cooked sections of meats is exactly what they're made for. Nuf said.
What makes more sense is not using extreme hardened VG-10 for anything where's there's the likelyhood of chipping it. This is another reason why I'm an advocate of the DP3 line over the Flash one.....VG-10 is an older steel and it seems to me that Tojiro has opted to take it to the edge of its limits when a better practice would be to use another grade of steel better suited to being taken to these hardness levels. Kind of odd choice considering they're charging very top dollar for these knives and many 'super-steel' knives sell for significantly less.
PS. James, you can always swap it before you use it. Just an option, anyway I'm sure with proper car it'lll serve you very well.
PPS. I don't know if that Ikea roller sharpener you're talking about is one of those draw through wheel type things? If so I'd not use it on the Tojiro. It will not put the proper angle back on..it's prolly set to ~20degrees and so you'll risk making a mess of your blade/s. Spend the $30 on the Edge Faux, is a no brainer.
gthomas04
...was Drubbing's first. AKA Captain Tightarse
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. Spend the $30 on the Edge Faux, is a no brainer.
And if you are lucky like some of us you can end up with it for free
Anakist
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Already have an edge faux. I use the pull through for the finishing double bevel. Extra fine on the good knives with the edge faux, then the 20deg as a second bevel to provide support to the edge.
Works beautifully, and is even the wife can touch them up between uses.
James
Works beautifully, and is even the wife can touch them up between uses.
James
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I had the pleasure of using a Tojiro DP 180mm gyuto while I was away at the beach for about two weeks. As luck would have it, my mates old man purchased it in Darwin a few years ago on the recommendation of a well-informed mate. Well-informed indeed! It gets a pretty regular whetstone treatment from the fella next door who is very much into hunting, so it's in great condition. Very pleasant to cut with, well balanced. My only criticism is that the handle is perhaps a little small for me in the hand, and I prefer slightly larger blades for most kitchen tasks. I would happily add one of these (or it's big brother) to my kitchen.
Unfortunately, I need to choose between the Fujiwara FKM and these. I think I'm going to get the Fujiwara in 210mm. I can always get a Tojiro utility or nakiri later, and their carbon steel line is really nicely priced.
Unfortunately, I need to choose between the Fujiwara FKM and these. I think I'm going to get the Fujiwara in 210mm. I can always get a Tojiro utility or nakiri later, and their carbon steel line is really nicely priced.
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No worries mate, if it's working well for you thats worth more than anything else.
The only thing I'd offer is that the exact angle the 'draw through' puts on any knife is probably variable depending on how old etc it is. I'd also be dubious that a proper double bevel edge could be put on with just a few draws through the extra fine wheel. Does strike me as you're going from a quite precise/exact mechanism in the EF and putting on say 15-18 degrees, and then finishing on a convenience oriented but less precise system at a grit/angle that could vary.
Haha like I said please don't get me wrong if it works for you thats more important.
Just out of curiousity do the pull through makers state the angle their unit should put on any blades pulled through it?
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I never used to cut myself before I got an Edge Faux, but I've done it twice since I started sharpening my knives. I'm happy to report that I've now seen my knuckle bone and have two stitches in my finger! Silliness aside, I've learnt the value of regularly giving the stones a wipe with kerosene to clean them off while sharpening. I was wondering why progress had slowed to nothing, and it turns out that the pores of the stones were so clogged with slurry that I was really just polishing the steel. Much better now, a couple of knives in the drawer have cleaned up really well.
I have a question for you knife maestro's. The Fujiwara FKM gyuto's all have a 70/30 bezel, which doesn't bother me except in regards to sharpening. I'm guessing I have two options in regard to that. Buy an angle cube and learn to do the 70/30 bezel on the Edge Faux (if possible), or wait for it to dull and put a 50/50 bezel on it when I resharpen it. What do you guys reckon? If neither of these are intelligent or practical, I'll have not much option but to go for the equivalent Tojiro.
Another question, actually. The Tojiro DP3 line is definitely different to the DP Cobalt for sale here, right?
I have a question for you knife maestro's. The Fujiwara FKM gyuto's all have a 70/30 bezel, which doesn't bother me except in regards to sharpening. I'm guessing I have two options in regard to that. Buy an angle cube and learn to do the 70/30 bezel on the Edge Faux (if possible), or wait for it to dull and put a 50/50 bezel on it when I resharpen it. What do you guys reckon? If neither of these are intelligent or practical, I'll have not much option but to go for the equivalent Tojiro.
Another question, actually. The Tojiro DP3 line is definitely different to the DP Cobalt for sale here, right?
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Yes, washing off the stones regularly whilst using is a good idea. Some folks have said the OEM stones respond best to oily cleaning - but I just use water with a little detergent in it myself and a water tray I swish them around in. Seems to work fine and I'd prefer to avoid kero etc.
As far as the exotic bevel etc - yes, that was a major turn off for me. Hence I was going to get the Tojiro until the Artifex came up (I'd consider it too if I were you). Folks say as long as you can count your strokes then maintaining a non-50/50 bevel is not as hard as you think. They are technically excellent for a very sharp edge but not my cup of tea as 50/50's and single edges are a lot easier to maintain.
With proper care the knife will need minimal maintainence but the Tojiro is a top knife as well, some would say its superior.....so that'd prolly be my choice.
Ummm unsure on the DP3 vs DP Cobalt....check the Tojiro website - they have exact model numbers listed for all knives. As some lines can get confusing. IMHO all the DP lines are about the same....as long as it's clad VG-10 it's essentially the same creature.
Also FWIW do NOT be afraid to go with bolsterless knives, sometimes folks think these are inferior and nasty but far from it they're actually neither of these plus save a lot of weight and can be quite a bit more cost effective. Jap's don't like bolsters on their knives, as westerners do so their is a DP line with no bolsters that you can find sometimes. Good luck, let us know what you get.
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Putting a 50/50 bevel on your knife isn't as simple as it sounds. You'll have to re-grind both primary (or secondary whatever you want to call them) bevels as the profile of the whole knife is 70/30, not just the cutting edge. You'll also end up reprofiling the whole thing. The only limitation of the edge faux is the ability to sharpen off-set bevel knives. I'm sure it's possible but it would be a pain in the backside to do.
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- Aug 9, 2012
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Yeah, the oil that came with this cleans them off reasonably well. I'll give them a go in water and detergent tomorrow and see if it makes any difference. I've found the kero to be more effective for cleaning them out at the end of the day though. I'm making a reasonable amount of progress on the Edge Faux, my first few knives were a bit dodgy as far as consistency was concerned. Much more even and faster now. I've probably gone through about 20 knives, having a drawer full of crap is actually turning out to be fun!
I have had a look at the the Artifex, and it does look quite reasonable. I'll give it some more thought and have a read. I'm not worried about a bolster as we have a number of knives already that don't have them. The extra difficulty while sharpening is the only problem with the Fujiwara, but I think it is significant enough for me to abandon it as an option. I'm definitely not feeling competent on the EF to do a 70/30 bevel justice, even if it is technically possible.
Sounds like it's definitely more of a hassle than it's worth, considering that I have a couple of quite similar other options. Cheers for your thoughts fellas, much appreciated.
My old man found a couple of whetstones out in the shed too. They're both combination stones with a cradle each, and they look like they're in reasonable condition. They'd only be pretty cheap ones from a local hardware store. I have an old cleaver to play around with, it's got a couple of wicked bent bits on the blade from where the old fella tried to chop through a chicken. Although labelled a "Chinese Cleaver Knife", it's a slicer. I've used the 180 grit stone on the Edge Faux to work out the bent bits so that the blade is straight again. It should be good enough to get me a bit acquainted with free hand whetstone use.
Mark1966
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I wonder how you would go with TWO EFs in this scenario? One set for each angle. It wouldn't cost that much to have to two sitting there on the bench?
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Or a set of stops on the adjustment post. Alternatively, as mong is alluding to, freehand sharpening. It really isn't that hard. With the stones I've got now my knifes are all ridiculously sharp. Although I'm sure, with the aid of something like the edge pro, they could be a tad sharper I don't know if it's really needed to be honest. My J-knife is like an 8 inch razor blade as it is and that's without me even trying that hard.
SmallYetDeadly
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I've only done a couple of knives on the EF so far.
Machine is easy to setup and use. Getting the left hand working the stone took a bit of time to find a rhythm. 400 and 800 grit stones need a good cleaning now.
I have a ways to go but I've already had success worthy enough to be noted by the boss. A grudging "I guess it's a bit sharper"
I've just gone with a bevel @ 18* so far as my mundial seem to chip the edge fairly readily. I'll try the carving knife at 15* as it sees less work and judge how it goes from there.
Machine is easy to setup and use. Getting the left hand working the stone took a bit of time to find a rhythm. 400 and 800 grit stones need a good cleaning now.
I have a ways to go but I've already had success worthy enough to be noted by the boss. A grudging "I guess it's a bit sharper"
I've just gone with a bevel @ 18* so far as my mundial seem to chip the edge fairly readily. I'll try the carving knife at 15* as it sees less work and judge how it goes from there.