Knives & Knife sharpening

Pjotr said:
Yeah, stay clear of it. Knives? Love? Don't really go together. MInd you, this is the only "must have" knife I've ever bought. Correction...that my kids have bought me for Christmas.
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Aren't kids wonderful! So perceptive sometimes too ....
 
Pjotr said:
What it will replace is my 180mm chef's knife so it's the perfect size. I hope it's light. You really don't want the knife you use the most to be heavy and unwieldy.
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It's very light. Ah depends what you like, a lot of people prefer the weight, heft etc of German style knives - which I have a few of as well. They've both got their relative strengths, but these Jap knives are very light but in no way is this an inditement on their quality....all the weight is saved through not having a full tang....no bolster and a light handle, also the blade itself is thinner than the average German styled offering. I'm sure you'll be very happy with it.

Have to look into whether I want to 'force' a patina onto it now. Word of warning before you go trying to sharpen it I think Tojiro does the edge on this at some CRAZY angle each side....something like 12 degrees or so. So if you're going to sharpen mark it and them check this with your highest grit stone first to ascertain what the angle is. I've read of folks taking them down to like 7 degrees etc which is just MAD and a stretch even for this steel.
 
Nick the Knife said:
It's very light. Ah depends what you like, a lot of people prefer the weight, heft etc of German style knives - which I have a few of as well. They've both got their relative strengths, but these Jap knives are very light but in no way is this an inditement on their quality....all the weight is saved through not having a full tang....no bolster and a light handle, also the blade itself is thinner than the average German styled offering. I'm sure you'll be very happy with it.

Have to look into whether I want to 'force' a patina onto it now. Word of warning before you go trying to sharpen it I think Tojiro does the edge on this at some CRAZY angle each side....something like 12 degrees or so. So if you're going to sharpen mark it and them check this with your highest grit stone first to ascertain what the angle is. I've read of folks taking them down to like 7 degrees etc which is just MAD and a stretch even for this steel.
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I think I'll just do my usual freehand style sharpening for a while. Unfortunately that only works to an extent after which you have to mechanically put the correct angle on to it. I might have to invest in one of your gizmos. I'll try my trusted Furi first. Don't know how it'll go with the shallower angle. I've got a feeling that it'll follow whatever the angle it's presented with. Not a very precise device. I barely have to use it on my other carbon steel knives so I don't expect this to be any different on this one.
 
Pjotr said:
I'll try my trusted Furi first. Don't know how it'll go with the shallower angle. I've got a feeling that it'll follow whatever the angle it's presented with. Not a very precise device. I barely have to use it on my other carbon steel knives so I don't expect this to be any different on this one.
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Furi? *visibly gags*

Don't tell me you have those horrible diamond finger sharpener they make? Or one of the other pull through ones? Furi as a brand hold a special place in my heart for being hyped and overmarketed products that are actually of poor to average quality. You'll find it very hard to ever find a good review of any of their products.....they remind me of Global, but without having the half decent products to back their hoopla up (Global is overrated but still make some ok consumer level gear).

Check out zknives.com as they've panned Furi knives a number of times.....this is actually an excellent site and one of the best on knives and metallurgy on the entire net. I had good fun getting into it with a few folks on a 'deal' that was posted about some Furi knives.

You know enough about tools and metal to make your own calls but any decent sharpener lasts for MANY years and will be used on MANY knives........regardless of how good the knife is if it isn't sharpened properly it will be useless within a relatively short period of time. Hence the logical side of me says that if anything people should spend MORE on their sharpener than on their knives......and yet its completely the other way around. :huh:

I'd be very reluctant to use anything other than a proper sharpener than can be calibrated/adjusted specifically to the angle on the Tojiro. Takes a moment to stuff up a good edge and MANY HOURS to get it back again.
 
We have a collection of about 10 chef and utility knives (plus a bunch of random paring knives) in our knife drawer, and sadly, the two best ones in there are the cheap cleaver and mini santoku that my parents bought for a buck each in Vietnam last time they were there. These things started off wicked sharp, but everything else is blunt as. Showed the old man the Edge Faux last night because he was thinking about getting another sharpening steel, following a bit of research he's sold. We're gunna pick one up when we get back from overseas, and I might have to hunt down a Tojiro gyuto for myself...
 
Mong. said:
We're gunna pick one up when we get back from overseas, and I might have to hunt down a Tojiro gyuto for myself...
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Good man Sam! Haha I get a laugh out of how much stuff I've 'convinced' folks to buy. Amusing stuff.

If you're not keen on the carbon steel (honestly its really NOT for everyone - is more a special knife to be used by the folks who KNOW how to use it, whereas SS stuff is more normal stuff to be used by all) - then look at Tojiro's DP series. These are the top recommendation to folks as their first serious knife (moving away from mainstream mega-shop/department store stuff).

Have a core of VG-10, which is an older steel steel alloy but still a very good performer, thats sandwiched in between very non-reactive softer SS alloys. Its a common Japanese technique that works very well. These are very affordable and come in a good range featuring western style handles rather than the Wa style, which can be not everyone's taste. Hard to beat for value and should last a lifetime of use with proper care.
 
Nick the Knife said:
...

If you're not keen on the carbon steel (honestly its really NOT for everyone - is more a special knife to be used by the folks who KNOW how to use it, whereas SS stuff is more normal stuff to be used by all) - then look at Tojiro's DP series. These are the top recommendation to folks as their first serious knife (moving away from mainstream mega-shop/department store stuff).

...
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Your friends at CKTG only ship the Tojiros to the US. Everten often have pretty good prices, not sure on how the Tojiros though.
 
Mark1966 said:
Your friends at CKTG only ship the Tojiros to the US. Everten often have pretty good prices, not sure on how the Tojiros though.
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Thats only a recent development - as in the group order we placed around 5mths ago the guys bought around 5 Tojiro's between them (some DP's and some Shirogami from the ITK range). I know that a few folks also got very good prices going through Rakuten and stumbling over a shop on there that was selling the Tojiro DP3's.

Everten's pricing is ok - I think the Ebay seller is better when I've checked in the past, if he doesn't have want you want in stock I'd email and ask him, he's a very nice guy and replies with Japanese efficiency....Keiichi is his name FWIW.

IMHO if you have a good chefs knife (gyuto) ~210mm size and then a nice smaller knife (utility/petty) ~80-120mm in size. You'll be pretty much set. A lot of folks buy BIG block sets, which is a huge con and marketing wank. Optional extras for any kitchen would be a serrated bread knife (I'd buy a cheap and nasty one of these as steel quality is largely irrelevant & the 210mm Chefs if properly maintained will cut almost anything as well).....honestly less GOOD knives that are well maintained are better than a great big block of so-so knives.

I like Ikea's cheapish magnetic knife racks too, just remember to roll on and off via the heel of the knife.
 
Nick the Knife said:
Furi? *visibly gags*
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I think you let the knife sharpeneing enthusiast get the better of you there.

Nick the Knife said:
Don't tell me you have those horrible diamond finger sharpener they make?
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Yep...you ever used one?

Nick the Knife said:
..........Furi knives.......
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My wife, inspite of the far better knives we've got, uses one Furi knife she bought ages ago for herself. It takes up most of my sharpening time. She's a suberb cook. Go figure!

Nick the Knife said:
You know enough about tools and metal to make your own calls.....
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Let me see, I've never actually made a list of tools I'd professionally use on a regular basis but here you go:

Planes:
  • Block plane
  • Smoothing plane
  • Joining plane
  • Shoulder plane
  • Rebate plane
  • Couple of beading planes different patterns and widths
Chisels:
  • Half a dozen standards ranging from 1/4 to 2inches
  • Concave, convex with bevels in and out
  • Dozen or so carving chisels
Miscallaneous:
  • Adzes
  • Draw knife
  • Side axes (only once or twice but an interesting tool, basically a handed axe)
Saws:
  • Four cross cuts ranging from 12 to 6 TPI (teeth per inch)
  • One ripping saw at 6 TPI

I've missed out on loads of other bits and pieces, including the touch ups I'd do on electrical tool blades and drill bits but that'll suffice. Although this doesn't make me a knife sharpening "expert" I can tell when somethng ain't sharp and when whatever I'm doing isn't working. The Furi is a perfectly useable tool that puts a decent bevel on a SS kitchen knife. If I'm feeling finicky I'll run a stone over it to smooth out the diamond cuts but on the whole a decent steel works just fine. I'm also convinced it'll follow whatever bevel that's on the knife to start with. If most people had one of these in addition to their standard knife block and even without being able to use a steel, I'm sure knife sales would plummet. I hardly have to use it on any of my carbon steel knives 'cause they're all beautifully thin and tapered and steeling them up regularly is all that's needed. I'll post a picture of them. A collection of rag tag hand me downs, gifts and finds but totally stunning blades. Unfortunately a chefs knife of say 200mm and wide enough to be able to comfortably get your fingers underneath the handle doesn't want to be (and can't be) too thin, tapered and flexible so I've always used a SS knife for that purpose. Until now....

By the way, I worked with many other boat builders/carpenters and I couldn't really use any of their tools and this feeling was mutual. I thought their gear was hopelessly blunt and had the wrong bevel etc etc. And they thought exactly the same of mine. There is no one way or one tool to sharpen anything and although I'm happy to be corrected I'm sure that's the same with the humble kitchen knife. If I can't keep the gyuto sharp using one method I'll try another and if that eventually means I've got to go out and buy a gizmo to do it, guess what my next Christmas/birthday present from the the kids is going to be? But if it behaves anything like my other carbon steel knives I don't think it'll be needed. We'll see.
 
Oh man, I dunno if I'm reading that wrong but it comes across like I've hit a bit of a nerve by questioning your 'diamond encrusted sharpening fingers'. Kind bizarre that you listed all that gear, sorry but I couldn't connect the dots on that one, sorry. :blink:

You love your Furi gear...I've no issue with that. I've no problem in saying I've never touched any of their gear and have no intention to do so anytime soon. What I wrote wasn't so much to try and get you to toss your sharpening fingers rather to just flag for other readers that Furi is a dodgy brand....not IMHO as I've never used it but read the independant 3rd party reviews of those who know a lot more than both you or me and make they can make their own mind up.

Yep...you ever used one?
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I never cease to be amused when folks use this as a defence in any discussion. One doesn't have to have used/done/experienced any number of things to be able to draw pretty likely ideas about the outcome....and in this case I wasn't speaking from my use of them but rather as stated previously more knowledgeable 3rd parties that've reviewed Furi products. SOrry but they're junk...they hype the RRP, try and mislead consumers with making it out they're made in Australia or Germany and are just Chinese nasties. Even their 'innovations' are laughable...e.g this is from memory but they have a copper plug in the handle of some of their knives that they claim users can partially remove to compensate in the loss of weight in the blade of the knife as it wears....most ridiculous thing I've ever heard!

But like I said I for not one second profess to be the expert here, this very thorough review of a knife from Furi's top of the line range. I believe the common parlance is something alone the lines of " 'Nuf said."

My wife, inspite of the far better knives we've got, uses one Furi knife she bought ages ago for herself. It takes up most of my sharpening time. She's a suberb cook. Go figure!
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Without stating the obvious and I don't mean this in a smarty way but one's cooking prowess has nothing to do with the knives they use.....I could point you to plenty of folks with great knives who are able to burn water in the kitchen & also their opposites that could whip up Michelin star level cuisine with utensils that'd not look out of place in some circa-1965 Ukrainian kitchen.

There is no one way or one tool to sharpen anything and although I'm happy to be corrected I'm sure that's the same with the humble kitchen knife.
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Honestly I think you've taken this very personally for some reason.....if pulling an edged blade horizontally through a gadget like that gets your knife the way YOU like it, thats all there is to it.

Its convenience sharpening and I've no issue with this if thats what one wants. Its not my thing and I'd not recommend it to others, but it's better than doing nothing or using a nasty powered sharpener.

Again if you think Furi is a great brand thats your call, but based on the info I've read from folks much smarter than me one'd have to be either braver or richer than me to plonk down good coin for them when other options like Victorinox's Fibrox/Rosewood range is available for a lot less & is universally praised. Again I don't state this for you as I know you're happy with your Furi but for others looking to buy as knives can be a tricky purchase and the smoke co's like Furi blow doesn't make it any easier.

Anyway, you bought the Tojiro, I hope you like it as its a great product at a brilliant price and yes, you're welcome for me finding and linking it for you. :cheesy:
 
Nick the Knife said:
.............and yes, you're welcome for me finding and linking it for you.....
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And yes, I've already thanked you for linking it up and have also made comments, intended to be friendly, about your enabling skills in this matter.

As for the rest....I think it best if we just leave it.
 
PHEW! Glad we got that sorted.

I've ordered two more EdgeFaux for my father and brother-in-law for Christmas.

Is this an AD?

[as an aside I think the general rule of thumb for on-line forums is the longer the post the more it should be ignored :D ]
 
Mark1966 said:
.......I've ordered two more EdgeFaux for my father and brother-in-law for Christmas. Is this an AD?
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It will be when you start finding forgotten stashes hidden away in drawers and then discover they're original prototypes with the makers name engraved.
 
Where does one go for reliable knife info? I'm looking at the Talk Blade and Chef Talk forums at the moment, and I've just started doing some reading on Z Knives. Does anyone have a treasure trove bookmarks folder with useful links they could share?
 
Pjotr said:
It will be when you start finding forgotten stashes hidden away in drawers and then discover they're original prototypes with the makers name engraved.
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Touche!


:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
 
Pjotr said:
And yes, I've already thanked you for linking it up and have also made comments, intended to be friendly, about your enabling skills in this matter.

As for the rest....I think it best if we just leave it.
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Very happy to leave the 'rest' as is. :)

However FTR what you've stated is incorrect. I first provided the link to the same knife at CKTG as an example - you then were kind enough to say thanks and I responded to this. Based on your positive response I went and found you this same knife again but this time through an alternative seller as if you are no longer able to buy Tojiro's from CKTG if you're a not in the USA - and even if you could their OS postage is horrendous (~$30 for one knife). So as stated found the seller that would get them for you and be ~$25 cheaper overall.

Understand what you're saying about your subsequent comment being intended to be friendly but it can be read very differently & it did come across a lil that way to me. FWIW I do have high spectrum Asperger's, which makes me a very literal person. But anyway c'est la vie.

I only state this now not to 'get thanks' but rather to correct that I'm not some clown seeking a pat on the back when you've already been gracious enough to give one. Anyway, lets consider the matter dead and done. No issues for me on that.
 
Mong. said:
Where does one go for reliable knife info? I'm looking at the Talk Blade and Chef Talk forums at the moment, and I've just started doing some reading on Z Knives. Does anyone have a treasure trove bookmarks folder with useful links they could share?
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Depends what kind of info you want? I mean there's technical info and then there's opinions. Both have value just depends what you're after. Honestly knife sharpening is a bottomless pit that you could go into for ever......despite what some might perceive I'm very far from being a true sharpening enthusiast myself. I have a ~$30 knickoff sharpening system, $20 worth of 3rd party stones for it mounted on Al strips and a digital inclinometer (which I regret buying for ~$20 as it was complete overkill!). A ceramic hone that was a gift and a diamond encrusted hone (anything other than very high end diamond encrusted sharpening tools are a COMPLETE ripoff for the consumer, good info on this on Zknives & even the inventor of the EP has publically stated this, normal abrasives are far better value and outperform in the long term - I bought this when I was younger and much dumber!).

I seek to put sharp and sustainable edges on my knives that match what grade of knife they are. No mirror edges in my house nor fancy cutting tricks.

That thread over at WP is exceptionally good and really has everything about using the EP/EF one could ever want to ask. Guys there got way more into it than myself. But if you're looking for info on what knives to buy feel free to ask away, its generally very straight forward as there's very clear examples of 'best buys' at the differing price points.
 
That is correct Mark. I wonder if the camouflage will work to get it through the house past wifey :laugh: Time to start watching those videos.

Just read the last page...the edge faux could be the work of Satan himself bringing such disturbance to our happy hollow :confused:
 
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